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13 Feb 2020, 10:40 (Ref:3957387) | #26 | |||
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Whilst my daily commute would work ok with an EV (I could charge overnight on my driveway) I need the car to be capable of long runs as well. Charging times need to come down drastically, cost needs to come down, range needs to go up, battery life needs to improve. Give it another 10 years of development and we might get there. |
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13 Feb 2020, 10:44 (Ref:3957388) | #27 | |
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Certainly I can see why we have a push for EVs. We'll see how far the technology can go. Obviously there are plenty other options than EVs, so it will take a while.
Obviously they need to be longer lasting, because they haven't enough charge atm. It needs time to work. We'll see what happens in the future |
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13 Feb 2020, 10:48 (Ref:3957390) | #28 | ||
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My 2003 Alfa 156 Sportwagon is a diesel, so is no longer acceptable in certain places, including Essen, where I visit twice a year. Although it has now done 277,000km it is still a fine car. However, I have just bought a petrol-engined 2007 Alfa GT which, aside from being a superb car that cost me little, should cover those eventualities for a few more years.
After that, who knows? |
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13 Feb 2020, 11:03 (Ref:3957395) | #29 | |||
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My experience with an electric vehicle was back in the late 70s and continued into the 80s, but the performance was absolutely woeful! Perhaps I should explain. Back then, I was a member of my local Round Table, and one of our annual traditions was to go around the village collecting donations during the lead up to Christmas in order to provide Christmas hampers for the less well off in our locality. To do this collecting, we towed a sleigh on a trailer, with loudspeakers blasting out Christmas carols and one of our members dressed up as Santa Claus waving to all and sundry , whilst we knocked on doors with our collecting tins. During my year as chairman of the committee responsible for raising charitable donations, it became apparent that the trailer float was at the end of it's life, and one of the committee jokingly suggested that a milk float would be the perfect platform for creating a new float. As Express Dairies (and United) were one of my customers, I was delegated to see whether they would lend us one of their floats for us to use on an annual basis. To my surprise, they actually donated a float that was surplus to their requirements, along with its great big charger. They also provided and paid for a 3 phase electric supply where we stored the float, and sent an engineer out at the end of November each year to check that the float was roadworthy. Oh, and nought to thirty took about a day, but only if you were going downhill. |
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13 Feb 2020, 13:02 (Ref:3957421) | #30 | ||
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No, the subject was the s/hand value of EVs at 10 years which is governed by the laws of supply and demand. The point is that today they only have a reasonable value because there are fewer available than the number of people who can manage with a short range vehicle.
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13 Feb 2020, 13:39 (Ref:3957430) | #31 | ||
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However if the current bunch of political pressure groups manage to manipulate the political arena to their liking the potential for making ICE transport non-viable in most of the country (for all practical purposes) might mean that the oldest electric vehicles turn out to be rather desirable anyway - simply because they exist whereas their ICE contemporaries don't (new or used) having been banned from most cities and thus completely annihilating the ICE market and its supporting infrastructure. Charging at home is presently somewhat limited in capability. Probably OK for commuting or local journeys. Even if battery capacity and longevity management both massively improve with faster and faster charge rate potential, home charging is not likely to be able to take advantage of optimal charge rates (or even higher capacities) unless all homes are equipped with 3 phase supplies - and then some. Now that would be an interesting infrastructure challenge. |
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13 Feb 2020, 14:12 (Ref:3957435) | #32 | |||
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Regarding the BMW engine fires, I think that a lot of these are related to faults within the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system and plastic inlet manifolds. |
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13 Feb 2020, 15:31 (Ref:3957456) | #33 | ||
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About 10 years ago there was a big campaign and a lot of shouting about growing plants on a huge piece of land for manufacturing biofuel not too far from me near the Almeria race track near Tabernas. I believe that a fair bit of EU money was thrown at the idea but like a lot of things in Spain it came to nothing. Just like the HS railway line to Almeria that has been started and mothballed just up the road again using EU money ! I haven't looked into the pros & cons of biofuels and I wonder what the "experts" on here have to say
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
13 Feb 2020, 15:39 (Ref:3957457) | #34 | ||
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All this negativity to electric cars is because everyone is comparing old technology electrics to current ICEs. What will it take for you to do a volte face? I'm sure you'll be more positive as new technology rolls out. There'll be a battery of new ideas on the horizon soon.
That's because of the sort of pressure the Government has tried to exert by bringing forward the date ICEs cannot be put in new cars. If there were no pressure, there would be no movement. Be it hydrogen, new means of charging or whatever, we will progress, and also progress in the power infrastructure required. Of course we will develop new technology, the ICE has not stood still for a hundred years has it? |
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13 Feb 2020, 15:50 (Ref:3957461) | #35 | |||
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13 Feb 2020, 16:02 (Ref:3957462) | #36 | |
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It’s a tricky one. Certainly we should have faith in the government, but as you say, sometimes they are influenced by lobbying from certain people who have connections to companies. As you say diesel became a bit of a thing over petrol, but how long with that last? I still think there will be a place for diesel, but at the same time we should explore other fuels
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13 Feb 2020, 16:13 (Ref:3957465) | #37 | ||
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Sigh.
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13 Feb 2020, 16:17 (Ref:3957466) | #38 | |||
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Youtube is a Google company, so obviously it is not being censored by them if you can watch it on their platform? Why is movement to EVs as a current/future technology a left wing agenda. If I'm not mistaken, the current changes to UK policy regarding ICE powered vehicles are being delivered by a government that is right of centre? With regards to the claims that 'A large container ship would need a 1 million ton battery & aircraft will not get off the ground', then we already have real world examples that disprove this. A retrofitted DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver seaplane is currently going through final testing, after successfully proving the technology as viable. The Rolls-Royce, Airbus and Siemens programme 'E-Fan X' is scheduled to begin flights in 2021. Admittedly, we are not at the point where a fully electric aircraft can carry 3-digit passenger numbers on long ranges, but you have to consider how long it took to progress from the Kitty Hawk to the Model 14 Benoist air-boat (13 years). It took roughly 50 years, and the development of jet-powered airliners, before long-haul wide-body transportation became available. Don't assume that what is possible today will always remain so, or you undermine the ability of the human race to advance in the field of technology. When steam traction was king, many could not see how internal combustion could change things. As for the claim that a large container ship would require a 1 million ton battery - I suggest the author looks at the real-world example of battery-electric locomotive power. In comparison to diesel engine locomotives, electric railways offer substantially better energy efficiency, lower emissions and lower operating costs. Electric locomotives are also usually quieter, more powerful, and more responsive and reliable than diesels. Metronet locomotives for example weigh 15 tonnes and have a capacity to haul that is roughly equivalent to a 12 tonne (plus fuel) diesel equivalent. A more sensible opinion comes from the IEEE - which calculates the total requirement for an 18,000 TEU cargo ship to go from Hong Kong to Hamburg as being a battery weight of 100,000 metric tons (non-stop). Currently, it is not economically viable to replace the diesel motor (and fuel tanks) with an all-electric power-train. But it will not be long before the balance tips, initially to complete the journey with charging stops and eventually non-stop. The GWh/kg capacity of batteries is continually improving and fuel costs are rising. Shipping firms will take the most cost-effective option, which is continually heading to all-electric. |
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13 Feb 2020, 16:20 (Ref:3957468) | #39 | |||
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The ads I linked to were in response to the comment: |
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13 Feb 2020, 16:46 (Ref:3957471) | #40 | ||
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If you don,t believe that Google does censorship , then you must be ignoring the obvious . Have you never clicked on a Google search to find " This Site Cannot provide A secure Connection " . That is because they do not like it & are trying to stop people it . And you can get straight through there using a different search engine . And as for your opinions about electric power ,being worth more than a very experienced scientist , then I think I know who I would rather believe . |
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13 Feb 2020, 16:56 (Ref:3957474) | #41 | |||
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I also never said that Google does not censor, just pointing out that the video you claim that Google will censor is actually hosted on a Google platform. |
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13 Feb 2020, 16:59 (Ref:3957476) | #42 | |
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Google always were very Green biased , & were determined to run all of their operations on renewable energy .
Until a few years ago when they eventually discovered that " Renewable energy simply won,t work" https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/11/...ply-wont-work/ |
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13 Feb 2020, 17:16 (Ref:3957481) | #43 | |||
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'In 2011, the company decided that RE<C was not on track to meet its target and shut down the initiative. The two of us, who worked as engineers on the internal RE<C projects, were then forced to reexamine our assumptions.' There is a big difference between not on track, and simply won't work. The assumptions turned out to be inaccurate, so they were looked at again. 'Trying to combat climate change exclusively with today’s renewable energy technologies simply won’t work; we need a fundamentally different approach.' So they did not say it simply won't work at all, just that it won't work with 2011 technology. 'Our study’s best-case scenario modeled our most optimistic assumptions about cost reductions in solar power, wind power, energy storage, and electric vehicles. In this scenario, the United States would cut greenhouse gas emissions dramatically: Emissions could be 55 percent below the business-as-usual projection for 2050.' So they were still able to predict that, with 2011 technology, emissions could potentially be 55 per cent below that of doing nothing. 'What’s needed, are reliable zero-carbon energy sources so cheap that the operators of power plants and industrial facilities alike have an economic rationale for switching over soon—say, within the next 40 years. Let’s face it, businesses won’t make sacrifices and pay more for clean energy based on altruism alone.' Their conclusion was that a development in technology could deliver the aims of RE<C, they just didn't exist at the time. The final IEEE conclusion, that we need to look at the problem with a view to future technology, not current era - 'Now, R&D dollars must go to inventors who are tackling the daunting energy challenge so they can boldly try out their crazy ideas. We can’t yet imagine which of these technologies will ultimately work and usher in a new era of prosperity—but the people of this prosperous future won’t be able to imagine how we lived without them.' NB: is being green biased a bad thing? |
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13 Feb 2020, 18:14 (Ref:3957490) | #44 | ||
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They will, of course, immediately demonise petrol as well as diesel and claim that "clean and green" electric powered only by wind and solar is the only way forward. Those vehicle manufacturers that have made arrangements with other companies developing electric vehicle technology will be in good shape and should make huge profits in the short term (economy permitting) from the earlier adopter countries as they write off vast investments in energy consumption for their exist vehicle fleets in a rush to take any old EV tech they can lay their hands on. Most of it, probably, re-badged from China and full of rebranded Huawei comms kit to enable people tracking and road use charging. The other manufacturers will simply disappear from the UK market and one by one from the other markets as their own rules and regulations reach their target dates. They have this wonderful excuse about things being "set in law" as if handed down in Tablets of Stone and fixed in perpetuity - which of course it simply not the case. Ask the courts. Boris will continue to make stuff up for as long as he is allowed to get away with it. The others? Who knows. Who knows who will be around? Greta for President of the UK? The Rest of the World may also have some opinions of course ... And the corporations who would be quite enthusiastic about some policy led subsidy opportunities that would see the lower regions of society paying twice for everything. Better still there would be relative certainty for the conglomerates and their product development - based on "legal" requirements. |
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14 Feb 2020, 09:54 (Ref:3957573) | #45 | |||
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It shows how a 700 mile journey is a practical option in parts of the UK today. |
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14 Feb 2020, 10:14 (Ref:3957575) | #46 | ||
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Yes although it seems there was no real rush so a relaxed trip. I know someone with a Tesla 3 or whatever it is, who regularly goes to the West country. Also because there's no real rush he and his wife arrive relaxed.
Interestingly the Author has similar alternatives to us, we have a Fiesta ST and a V6 3l Grand Cherokee. I do agree with the comments.concerning battery life and indeed manufacture but ultimately there will be little choice in the next few years. |
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14 Feb 2020, 14:59 (Ref:3957610) | #47 | |
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Certainly a battery power car can be used quite economically. I admire those who have given these cars a go, I'm sure once you've driven them a few times, you know how best to use them. I think these types of cars will be worth considering
Of course we still need conventional cars just in case things go wrong. The electric cars still have quite a way to go before they a fully developed. There's no real hurry at the moment, we have plenty of other greener technology that's proved to work |
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15 Feb 2020, 17:36 (Ref:3957737) | #48 | ||
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With respect to the EV debate, I note from the Times today that there are concerns that some suppliers of charging points have fee structures that make a mockery of the economy claims:
"An investigation into public charging networks across the UK shows that motorists are required to pay an average of almost £10 for 100 miles worth of “fuel”. The study found that one operator, Ionity, charged as much as £23 for the power needed to travel 100 miles. This was nine times the comparable cost of charging a vehicle at home overnight — £2.67 — when the price of electricity is lowest. It was about double the cost of fuel for a similar-sized petrol or diesel car going the same distance." There is an interesting clip on youtube of Yamaha testing an electric powerpack in an Alfa 4C, though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfehJ2rkYKI These calculations were based on a 40Kw Nissan Leaf. It does show how important being able to charge at home is, which of course isn't an option if you are going more than say 80-90 miles one-way (even with the more frugal electric cars). Even on the £10 for 100 miles cost, my 10 year old Alfa diesel can nearly match that, driven gently - admittedly driven in my normal fashion it probably costs about £15 per 100 miles. It would need a lot to persuade me to lash out the inflated price for an EV just now. Last edited by Lancsbreaker; 15 Feb 2020 at 17:39. Reason: Additional comment |
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15 Feb 2020, 18:17 (Ref:3957739) | #49 | |
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Speaking of which, I realised the other day we don’t seem to hear much about biofuels anymore. I was expecting not long after they first became a thing, that by now they would have taken over, but it doesn’t seem to be so. Then again I didn’t expect Electric power to take over so quickly. Have they just simply gone out of fashion or is their not a need for them so much now?
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15 Feb 2020, 18:37 (Ref:3957743) | #50 | ||
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We have biofuels. The latest fuels you buy at the pumps includes methanol which is a biofuel. Hence it goes stale very quickly.
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