Ohh Hand bags at Dawn......

rlinter · 15 Mar 2002, 12:51 (Ref:235658)

Well the F3/GT -v- TOCA battle continues over who get the pits at Brands...

As the event is offically the British Touring Car Superweekender with both F3's and GT's nothing more than support series it looks like the boring taxis (to coin a phrase) will get the pits.

My sources indicate that the F3/GT camp are far from happy and a revolt could be on the cards...

This might get interesting - anyone willing to take a bet that this is the one and only such event.

Paddock Spy · 15 Mar 2002, 13:42 (Ref:235698)

I heard that given the attendance at BTCC meetings, each spectator is getting his own garage and that all the teams are being housed by the Kentagon!! Brands Hatch have a very special offer on for the race weekend too...buy one ticket, get 500 free!!

Paul Rayner · 15 Mar 2002, 14:33 (Ref:235717)

Touring Cars should get them for one simple reason - they're the main attraction.
However much you may like F3 or think that F3 is superior, the fact is that most of the fans are going for Touring Cars, F3 is a bonus. Touring Cars are therefore the main attraction and should therefore have the pits.
If you're in F3 and not happy then look at it this way: you get more exposure to fans in the outer paddock, who are more likely to later watch the race on TV, and come back in June to watch the next round.

Old Hairpin · 15 Mar 2002, 17:08 (Ref:235791)

It should be the F3 cars simply because they are the quickest! Proper racing cars them be...

BeerMonster · 15 Mar 2002, 17:50 (Ref:235824)

Should be the touring cars as i'm not interested in seeing any of the tin top teams... less walking for me to visit the F3 etc

rlinter · 15 Mar 2002, 18:35 (Ref:235860)

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Rayner
Touring Cars should get them for one simple reason - they're the main attraction.

Look at all those Touring Car drivers that reach the accepted pinicle of the sport F1....

In all seriousness there are logistical reasons why the F3 cars should be in the garages main as they would not be able to get through the tunnel due to ride height and supension travel reasons.

Where as the Taxi's will be able to...

Takuma · 15 Mar 2002, 19:14 (Ref:235887)

I believe, from very reputable sources, that the only reason the F3 teams agreed to take part in these weekends to help boost the rapidly falling btcc crowds, was because they were assured they would have EQUAL TOP OF BILL status, which includes been given use of the pits at circuits where it is IMPOSSIBLE to safely move an F3 car from a non pits area. Which is the case at Brands Hatch.

Remember that the F3 series, which is an official FIA approved formula has more cars, an entry of approx 30 cars all prepared to a very high standard. The overall driver standard is of a higher quality than the btcc, which is only a domestic saloon car series to a national formula.

F3 has prospered for the last 10 years without racing on the same meetings as the btcc, and it will continue to prosper without the btcc. F3 is the headline race at the best attended non F1 event in europe, the Marlboro Masters at Zandvoort. Also at Asia's best attended race meeting the Macau GP.

I believe the feeling amongst the F3 community, which includes some of the most experienced and talented engineers in British racing, is that forcing the F3 teams into the outer paddock will prevent the two other "super weekends" from taking place as billed. Surely it is an unacceptable act of dishonesty to offer the F3 series equal top billing and then treat the top domestic racing series as an unwanted support race. the F3 races have been split over 2 days, which is not the usual pattern for the series. Are the btcc comunity and management so scared of been exposed for the poor show that they actually are?

Paul Rayner · 15 Mar 2002, 20:30 (Ref:235935)

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
I believe, from very reputable sources, that the only reason the F3 teams agreed to take part in these weekends to help boost the rapidly falling btcc crowds, was because they were assured they would have EQUAL TOP OF BILL status, which includes been given use of the pits at circuits where it is IMPOSSIBLE to safely move an F3 car from a non pits area. Which is the case at Brands Hatch.

How can you have equal status? Only one championship's cars will fit in the garages. Also, Formula Renault cars fit through the tunnel, what's the different dimension that stops F3s getting through?

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
Remember that the F3 series, which is an official FIA approved formula has more cars, an entry of approx 30 cars all prepared to a very high standard. The overall driver standard is of a higher quality than the btcc, which is only a domestic saloon car series to a national formula.

That's personal opinion, but I can't see F3 grids being much different from Touring Car grids this year.

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
F3 has prospered for the last 10 years without racing on the same meetings as the btcc, and it will continue to prosper without the btcc. F3 is the headline race at the best attended non F1 event in europe, the Marlboro Masters at Zandvoort. Also at Asia's best attended race meeting the Macau GP.

This isn't Zandvoort or Macau, it's Brands Hatch in Britain, where Touring Cars attracts more visitors to motorsport events than F3. Although I personally have no preference between the two, a lot of people do. Touring Car races at Brands in 2001 got more spectators than F3. Simple.

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
Surely it is an unacceptable act of dishonesty to offer the F3 series equal top billing and then treat the top domestic racing series as an unwanted support race. the F3 races have been split over 2 days, which is not the usual pattern for the series. Are the btcc comunity and management so scared of been exposed for the poor show that they actually are?

Slightly harsh way of putting it, but I agree with you that there should be both F3 races on the Monday. Get rid of the Sportscar Invitation race to the Sunday instead.

**bella** · 15 Mar 2002, 20:53 (Ref:235948)

ye gods, children! just because they don't want the crowds of adoring fans bothering them, they all want the garages.

i say toss a coin

Takuma · 15 Mar 2002, 21:19 (Ref:235963)

The original agreement was that f3 had the garages at Brands, btcc at Donington, which has an excellent paddock area & both series would have garages at Silverstone.

Obviously the btcc management are unwilling to honour this.

Paul Rayner · 15 Mar 2002, 21:34 (Ref:235967)

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
The original agreement was that f3 had the garages at Brands, btcc at Donington, which has an excellent paddock area & both series would have garages at Silverstone.

Obviously the btcc management are unwilling to honour this.

I agree that sounds fair. Maybe it's a simple case of Touring Cars knowing they've got more fans. And teams not wanting to be swamped by them.

Takuma · 16 Mar 2002, 07:33 (Ref:236226)

F3 is a higher level series, the licence required is of a higher level, also the overall level of competitiveness throughout the entire field is higher. The time diff between the pole position and the last runner is smaller in both time and percentage of pole time than in touring cars.

The only logical, and honourable, decision is for the F3 series to be given the garages, as was originaly agreed.
I think you will find that at Silverstone and Donington PArk last season the F3 meetings had higher crowds than the equivalent btcc meeting, indeed I have been at test days with more people than at some btcc meetings last season.

Paddock Spy · 16 Mar 2002, 10:28 (Ref:236282)

Perhaps they should leave all the teams by the Kentagon and have a vote for the 20 punters that will turn up to watch. They can decide who should be in the pits - seems fair to me.

Takuma · 16 Mar 2002, 10:35 (Ref:236284)

well i know more than 20 going to watch the f3, NOT the taxi's

**Craig** · 16 Mar 2002, 10:57 (Ref:236298)

zzzz....

Who CARES ?!

They're there to race... just get on with it! Give the F3 guys the infield pits if they're so precious about it

SILVERS95 · 16 Mar 2002, 11:29 (Ref:236327)

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Hairpin
It should be the F3 cars simply because they are the quickest! Proper racing cars them be...

AGREED !

Jonny Apex · 16 Mar 2002, 17:49 (Ref:236569)

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
F3 is a higher level series, the licence required is of a higher level, also the overall level of competitiveness throughout the entire field is higher. The time diff between the pole position and the last runner is smaller in both time and percentage of pole time than in touring cars.

The only logical, and honourable, decision is for the F3 series to be given the garages, as was originaly agreed.
I think you will find that at Silverstone and Donington PArk last season the F3 meetings had higher crowds than the equivalent btcc meeting, indeed I have been at test days with more people than at some btcc meetings last season.

Is that the one when only 90 actual paying spectators went through the gate and they gave acrowd figure of several thousand?

On saying that, some of the BTCC crowd figures given last year - Silverstone first time around in particular - were laughable. An insult to people's intelligence. There could have been no more than 500 actual paying punters yet the figure given was 6000 and then later in the year the figure had become 10000 and by the end it was back to 6000.

It depends how you define a crowd - paying punters only or add on the press, officials, competitors, toilet cleaners, burger bar staff etc?

**Stephen Green** · 16 Mar 2002, 17:51 (Ref:236572)

Oh Lord, all this bickering and all over some silly garages. To my knowledge ALL the series racing that weekend are able to get through the tunnel from the outer paddock to the Grand Prix paddock so whats the big deal? F3 have done it many times before and will no doubt do it again, so have F Renault and all the other countless numbers of series that race at Brands Hatch. Even at the Grand Prix F3 doesn't get the pit garages and has to make do with their thrailors parked on the infield so what's the big deal for this weekend?

Oh this gets rather tiresome after a while.

Mackmot · 16 Mar 2002, 18:55 (Ref:236623)

I prefer F3 but its logical that anything that needs a pit stop eg GT and Touring Cars are the ones that need pit garages. Why do F3 need them they all have good enough awnings. How dumb is it to argue over a pride issue.

Paul Rayner · 16 Mar 2002, 19:22 (Ref:236636)

Quote:

Originally posted by Takuma
I think you will find that at Silverstone and Donington PArk last season the F3 meetings had higher crowds than the equivalent btcc meeting, indeed I have been at test days with more people than at some btcc meetings last season.

I went to both Donington Touring Cars and F3, both Silverstone F3 and the second Touring Cars, and there were always more at Touring Cars (admittedly especially when MG gave all their staff free tickets).

Official figures for Touring Cars (courtesy of www.renautsport.co.uk) were:

Brands Hatch, Kent 16th April 18000
Thruxton, Hants 7th May 18000
Oulton Park, Cheshire 20th May Over 14000
Silverstone, Northants 2nd June 6000
Donington Park, Leics 1st July 15400
Knockhill, Fife 22nd July 10500
Snetterton, Norfolk 4th August 16500
Croft, N Yorks 12th August 12000
Oulton Park, Cheshire 26th August 13500
Silverstone, Northants 9th Sept 17250
Donington Park, Leics 23rd Sept 12400
Brands Hatch, Kent 7th October Over 13000

TOTAL CROWD FIGURE = 166,550

AVERAGE CROWD FIGURE = 13,879

As both Touring Cars and F3 had equal opportunity to "interpret" their crowd figures, does anyone have the official F3 crowds for last year?

Takuma · 16 Mar 2002, 19:30 (Ref:236638)

This is not a "pride" issue, it concerns the honesty of statements made by the btcc management/bmp to the organisers of the f3 series concerning the status of the races Also there is a very simple logistical point, it is impossible to safely movean f3 car from the outer paddock at brands into pit lane via the tunnel, there is insufficient ground clearnce and the road surface is too bumpy and potholed.

I believe that when arp f3 has raced at minor meetings at brands hatch, they have used the area above the fire access gate at Paddock Hill bend as an assembnly area before sending the cars onto the track from that gate, with they much larger crowd expected at the easter weekend meeting, there are significant health and safety issues that would make that option unviable.

The only logical and viable decision, is to place the F3 teams in the garages, as per the promises originally made by btcc/bmp.

Takuma · 16 Mar 2002, 19:34 (Ref:236641)

Are those "official" btcc figures as accurate as Zimbabwean election results?

Paul Rayner · 16 Mar 2002, 19:52 (Ref:236655)

As I said, I'd like to see the "official" figures for F3 last year.
I never got an answer to an earlier question, what's the big dimension difference between FRenault cars and F3 cars which means they can't get through the tunnel?

I agree that if TOCA said they'd do something they should.

Takuma · 16 Mar 2002, 20:01 (Ref:236662)

I'm told by a leading F Renault engineer, that to get a F Renault car to the pits the cars have to be fitted with the wet tyres which, due to the different profile and slightly larger diameter, give the cars just enough ground clearance to negotiate the tunnel, that is not the case with F3 cars.

AndyF · 16 Mar 2002, 20:08 (Ref:236670)

I've got two questions to add to this debate!!

What's happening at Donington and Silvestone for the other superweekenders - as I can see the same problem occuring there?!

I've seen the ARP Formula 3 cars get through the tunnel - why can't the new F3s do it?

View Poll Results: Which Series should have the pits at brands?
British Touring Cars	8	27.59%
British F3's	12	41.38%
British GT's	2	6.90%
Who cares give the space to the Formula Fords....	7	24.14%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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