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Old 17 Sep 2003, 13:24 (Ref:721834)   #1
ParkLife
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Why did Williams abandon CVT?

Anyone have the real reason why Williams abandoned their development of a CVT?

It would obviosuly have massive advantages for racing but there doesn't appear to be any development going on anywhere anymore.
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Old 17 Sep 2003, 13:55 (Ref:721879)   #2
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It was banned at the end of 94 along with abs, active suspension etc
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Old 17 Sep 2003, 14:31 (Ref:721906)   #3
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It resulted in a bizaar sound as it went past and came out of corners.
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Old 17 Sep 2003, 17:48 (Ref:722122)   #4
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I have yet to see a CVT that I would be confident in, if I was someone responsible for designing such things. They work on belts rollers and pulleys, not something to mess 900HP through as far as i can tell
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Old 18 Sep 2003, 09:30 (Ref:722826)   #5
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But surely with the current use of automatic boxes and the electronics there is no real basis for the ban any more.

I also wouldn't say that they work on belts and pulleys! I think that's oversimplifying things considerably.

I think this is the sort of technology that F1 should be driving forward (I'd like to go back to 'pure' racing as much as the next guy but facing the reality that that simply isn't going to happen F1 should be used to rapidly develop technologies like these. I'm getting fed up with the stagnant technology in the automotive industry. Billions are being spent refining old concepts and there is obviously vastly diminishing returns. If the same cash would be put into revolutionary development we might actually make some decent progress into the realms of efficiancy and fuel consumption.

And don't get me started on rotary engines........
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Old 18 Sep 2003, 13:00 (Ref:723021)   #6
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Originally posted by ParkLife
But surely with the current use of automatic boxes and the electronics there is no real basis for the ban any more.
The main reason it was banned was so that all the teams didn't have to start developing it.

As someone famous once said with respect to new ideas in F1- If you can copy it then copy it, if you can't then get it banned.

(paraphrased and originally quoted by another member, sorry can't remember who)
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Old 18 Sep 2003, 14:01 (Ref:723073)   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigted
It was banned at the end of 94 along with abs, active suspension etc
End of '93 / Start of '94...
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Old 18 Sep 2003, 20:11 (Ref:723446)   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParkLife
But surely with the current use of automatic boxes and the electronics there is no real basis for the ban any more.

I also wouldn't say that they work on belts and pulleys! I think that's oversimplifying things considerably.

I think this is the sort of technology that F1 should be driving forward (I'd like to go back to 'pure' racing as much as the next guy but facing the reality that that simply isn't going to happen F1 should be used to rapidly develop technologies like these. I'm getting fed up with the stagnant technology in the automotive industry. Billions are being spent refining old concepts and there is obviously vastly diminishing returns. If the same cash would be put into revolutionary development we might actually make some decent progress into the realms of efficiancy and fuel consumption.

And don't get me started on rotary engines........

Right... you tell me the examples you are thinking of and I'll pass them onto Ford, where I work in R&D...


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Old 18 Sep 2003, 23:54 (Ref:723638)   #9
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Actually, there is a CVT being developed by someone here in Indy that actually works. I can't divulge much about it, but can say that it works via hydraulics, NOT belts and pullies. Packaging-wise, it can be very small (600 HP could be handled by a package 8 inches in diameter by 3 inches thick), is incredibly simple, and, I have no doubts, could easily replace all transmissions currently made, including big diesel trucks. When I first saw it, I kicked myself for not thinking of it first, as the principles are based on something any maintenance man has dealt with all his life.

It also might be legal under the current F1 rule wording - one of the very top teams has just started looking at it.........

If you want to see an example of what may be our next generation of internal combustion engines, go to www.revetec.com - they have a new engine concept that is shear genius in its simplicity, besides being about twice as efficient as current piston engines.
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Old 19 Sep 2003, 08:28 (Ref:723867)   #10
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It states that you must have a gearbox with at least 4 forward ratios
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Old 19 Sep 2003, 15:38 (Ref:724354)   #11
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I'm sure I've seen a CVT system in development without a belt... It was in the New Scientist or anoth Tech driven Mag a while ago!? I would have thought a hydraulic system may sap a fair bit of power though?
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Old 19 Sep 2003, 22:39 (Ref:724710)   #12
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Not this system. While it uses hydraulics as part of the control, it is not just a simple hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor system that relies on fluid volume and pressure flow. In actuality, it relies on the LACK of flow and backpressure to do its job - sorry, but I can't say any more.
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Old 22 Sep 2003, 09:45 (Ref:726172)   #13
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The classic CVT design never got to grips with powerful engines with lots of torque. Quite some manufacturers offer some sort of CVT in their production series but mostly in the sub-200/250Nm torque range, so basically on small size cars. Audi did some belt-R&D themselves and are currently offering a reinforced CVT in IIRC the A6 which can handle up to 300Nm. I don't really know what kind of CVT they used in the Williams F1 car but that engine will not have exceeded 350Nm I guess.
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Old 22 Sep 2003, 10:30 (Ref:726211)   #14
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The new approach to CVT mentioned above is not a secret, as has already been said it was featured in many journals, The Engineer was where I first read about it. It is based on using the previously wasted axial thrust developed by helical cut gears, which is proportional to engine rpm and torque. The inventor has produced several working prototypes and I believe is currently in negotiations with several Automotive manufacturers.

As for using it in F1 How Boring!! constant engine rpm all around the circuit and a drastic reduction in required driver skill (more so than normal), they're already comparatively easy to drive when compared to the cars of yesteryear......
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Old 22 Sep 2003, 10:46 (Ref:726222)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Revracing
As for using it in F1 How Boring!! constant engine rpm all around the circuit and a drastic reduction in required driver skill (more so than normal), they're already comparatively easy to drive when compared to the cars of yesteryear......
It would also remove the challenge of producing a flexible, usable but very high power engine.
It would be comparatively easy to produce a very high power engine with a tiny power band, the engine staying at the RPM for the entire race.
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