New wing tests - Page 3

Sodemo · 12 Oct 2010, 12:34 (Ref:2773768)

More disgruntlment amongst the teams at Suzuka it seems on the Red Bull wings.

You can clearly see them flexing then relaxing under braking. What I don't fully understand is that when Ferrari did this (back in 2006?) the FIA simply said "you have to change it", a race later and they were no longer flexing.

So quite why the FIA can't make a similar decision is beyond me, though it probably has something to do with politics.

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 12:59 (Ref:2773784)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

More disgruntlment amongst the teams at Suzuka it seems on the Red Bull wings.

You can clearly see them flexing then relaxing under braking. What I don't fully understand is that when Ferrari did this (back in 2006?) the FIA simply said "you have to change it", a race later and they were no longer flexing.

So quite why the FIA can't make a similar decision is beyond me, though it probably has something to do with politics.

Do you have a link to some video footage?

And who are the disgruntled teams? Any link to their latest comments would be good too.

Wims · 12 Oct 2010, 14:53 (Ref:2773835)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

Do you have a link to some video footage?
...

Look at the difference between the height of the front wing end plates when its in clean air compared to the dirty air behind JB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxNVoMXHz4

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 15:32 (Ref:2773861)

Is there some different video from Suzuka?

All the video from Spa shows is that the Red Bull has a lot of chassis roll. It's the behaviour under braking that I'd like to see.

Wims · 12 Oct 2010, 15:37 (Ref:2773864)

No it doesnt. It shows the wing end plates running way lower when they are in clean air compared to dirty air. Do you really think a modern F1 car (the quickest one in the field) would have that kind of chassis roll, or any sort of chassis roll?

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 15:38 (Ref:2773865)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

No it doesnt. It shows the wing end plates running way lower when they are in clean air compared to dirty air. Do you really think a modern F1 car (the quickest one in the field) would have that kind of chassis roll, or any sort of chassis roll?

Yep - there are loads of photos available to illustrate the fact.

MGDavid · 12 Oct 2010, 16:41 (Ref:2773893)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

Yep - there are loads of photos available to illustrate the fact.

do you have any links to some photos?

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 17:34 (Ref:2773910)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Yjpc_eruYB...Spanish_gp.jpg

http://www.grandprixlegends.com/Imag.../DC21005_1.jpg

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/20...er-2010-10.jpg

http://www.tunner.org/wp-content/upl...ew-575x431.jpg

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-conten...e__JLE0431.jpg

http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/...99a7422a9d.jpg

http://www.grandprixlegends.com/Imag...DC21006S_1.jpg

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/20...per-2010-4.jpg

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/20...per-2010-1.jpg

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/20...per-2010-2.jpg

There are loads more - do some Googling...

ASCII Man · 12 Oct 2010, 17:42 (Ref:2773912)

You basically just showed several pictures of a flexing front wing, whats your point?
Although the first one really is chassis roll, what with Webbers' left front tire being up in the air and all.

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 17:55 (Ref:2773922)

Guess you don't know what body/chassis roll is when you see it, then

Take a look at the inside front tyre in all the pictures - there is a clue there to be seen. There are other visual clues, but I won't get too technical on you....

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 18:35 (Ref:2773938)

Here's a pic of Alonso's flexi wing:

www.phoenixcarcompany.co.uk/images/alonso466.jpg

and another:

http://www.f1-site.com/wallpapers/20...per-2010-3.jpg

If you can't see the chassis roll in that pic - I give up....

ralf fan · 12 Oct 2010, 18:47 (Ref:2773944)

Ant said post race that the current load tests involve loading the wing with 100 pounds but in the race the wings experience something like 500 pounds of force.

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 18:53 (Ref:2773947)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Ant said post race that the current load tests involve loading the wing with 100 pounds but in the race the wings experience something like 500 pounds of force.

Well Ant's a dummy in that case. It's 100kg on each side at the end of the wing - as Christian Horner said (somewhere) that's like having two Ross Brawns standing on the end of the wing...... both sides.

The Red Bull's wings passed the test - again - in Suzuka last weekend as they have every time. Any moaning is simply that - sour grapes.

ASCII Man · 12 Oct 2010, 21:03 (Ref:2774014)

Why post pics of the Ferrari when the culprits are the Red Bull cars!

I'm not disputing the fact that these cars can have this "chassis roll" you speak of, as the Ferrari pics demonstrate that quite clearly.
Just that in the pictures you provided with the Red Bull cars such roll was not easily discernible.

phoenix · 12 Oct 2010, 22:24 (Ref:2774062)

"There's none so blind as those who will not see."

Proverb.

Meaning: You cannot make someone pay attention to something that he or she does not want to notice.

wnut · 12 Oct 2010, 22:45 (Ref:2774069)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

Well Ant's a dummy in that case. It's 100kg on each side at the end of the wing - as Christian Horner said (somewhere) that's like having two Ross Brawns standing on the end of the wing...... both sides.

The Red Bull's wings passed the test - again - in Suzuka last weekend as they have every time. Any moaning is simply that - sour grapes.

I think that would be one Ross Braun on either side of the wing.
100 kg is 220 lbs, and I very much doubt that Ross weighs 110 lbs!

Sodemo · 13 Oct 2010, 06:54 (Ref:2774174)

I have never seen an F1 car's bodywork move around so much due to chassis roll. I'll have to take a look at some other videos when the wings are under high load, i'll try and find a clip of a car going flat out through the Maggots, Beckets, Chapel complex at Silverstone.

ASCII Man · 13 Oct 2010, 07:03 (Ref:2774177)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

"There's none so blind as those who will not see."

Proverb.

Meaning: You cannot make someone pay attention to something that he or she does not want to notice.

Indeed, I just want to see Red Bull suffer tremendously like the maniac I am.

ascarracinguk · 13 Oct 2010, 07:31 (Ref:2774181)

theres one very simple solution for me...impound one of their cars, take it to the mira wind tunnel and press the big red button that says wind!!!....the fia can see it right infront of them and measure how much it flexes and at what load!!

Marbot · 13 Oct 2010, 08:33 (Ref:2774211)

F1 cars have suspension that works! Who'd have thought!

I think that Ross Brawn would very much like to jump up and down on each and every one of Red Bulls's front wings.

phoenix · 13 Oct 2010, 09:01 (Ref:2774227)

I think the trick that McLaren are missing is exactly what you said, Marbot.

The McLaren seems to need a rock-hard suspension with the car (areo surfaces) parallel to the track in order to work. The Red Bull, and latterly the Ferrari, seem to be able to get their aero working when the wing/underfloor it not perfectly parallel to the track.

The benefit is that the Red Bull has a more compliant suspension, particularly at the rear, which improves grip and traction. As Christian Horner has consistently said, their advantage is not just one thing. The wings/floor work better, the diffuser works better and the suspension works better than the competitors. You only need a gnats advantage in each area to see a difference on the stop watch.

As per above, yes I guess Brawn is likely to weigh around 15 stone, so one of him each side of the car is more realistic. Still, the static test is 100kg each side. If the FIA are happy with it - then there really should be no more fuss about flexing wings until they come up with another test.

It has to be noted that if the wings were flapping about, there is no-way to test that in a wind tunnel. No wind tunnel (that I know of) exists in the UK that will test a 100% size car at 180mph wind speed. Also, it should be noted that if the allegation were true, while the wing is being deflected, downforce is being lost in simply bending the wing - the downforce energy is wasted (as heat) in bending the wing rather than being passed into the chassis, so where's the benefit?

ASCII Man · 13 Oct 2010, 09:46 (Ref:2774263)

Wings flapping about like Vettels' in Spa is not beneficial, however wing endplates getting close to the ground creating a form of ground effect is very beneficial.

I'd guess that Newey designed this concept with clean air in mind, while not fully taking the effects of going in and out of dirty air into consideration.

Wims · 13 Oct 2010, 15:15 (Ref:2774408)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

..

It has to be noted that if the wings were flapping about, there is no-way to test that in a wind tunnel. No wind tunnel (that I know of) exists in the UK that will test a 100% size car at 180mph wind speed. Also, it should be noted that if the allegation were true, while the wing is being deflected, downforce is being lost in simply bending the wing - the downforce energy is wasted (as heat) in bending the wing rather than being passed into the chassis, so where's the benefit?

I dont think its about the additional downforce gained, I think its more about shaping the airflow towards the rear of the car and gaining the the downforce there instead. A lower front wing could possibly send the air around more of the front wheels, therefore massively decreasing drag, allowing higher downforce other places.

JamesH · 13 Oct 2010, 16:19 (Ref:2774429)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Why post pics of the Ferrari when the culprits are the Red Bull cars!

I'm not disputing the fact that these cars can have this "chassis roll" you speak of, as the Ferrari pics demonstrate that quite clearly.
Just that in the pictures you provided with the Red Bull cars such roll was not easily discernible.

???? Those Red Bull pics show it quite clearly. Look at the angle of the wishbones -that's the real indicator. And the fact that the end plates are closer to the ground on one side (whilst the car is in clear air going round a corner, so not an aero produced difference)

phoenix · 13 Oct 2010, 16:45 (Ref:2774437)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Wings flapping about like Vettels' in Spa is not beneficial, however wing endplates getting close to the ground creating a form of ground effect is very beneficial.

I'd guess that Newey designed this concept with clean air in mind, while not fully taking the effects of going in and out of dirty air into consideration.

I think your guessing is way off the mark.....

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