Safety in Historic Racing, time for a rethink?

[midgetman]

Gawd, there's no need to have been so touchy ;-) I could have chosen any powerful car, 917 and 956 came instantly to mind because they are big, powerful, iconic and my favourites.

John please feel free to edit my posts to say Lola T70 and McLaren M10B (two more favourite cars of mine, I wonder who I'll upset now) I apologise if I trod on your toes Graham, my point as outlined in my subsequent post remains and I make no apologies for that. It is madness that someone could line up on the grid in a big powerful car with seven races in a tiddler behind them.

Does it happen? Probably not, but it *could*. I cast no aspersions on the current crop of drivers.

Let's hope we can clear that up.

[gt917]

[QUOTE=midgetman;3405506]

Graham - cheers mate, whatever happened to "attack the post and not the poster". IIRC ( and I do RC because I Googled it) the 917 was called the Widow Maker.

Sorry Max, I apologise. I did not mean it to be like that.

The term "widow maker" was given in haste after John Woolfe was killed in the original unwieldly long tail version at LeMans in 1969. He was urged not to drive it. After that and the considerable aerodynamic improvements, no one else was killed in one.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Tim - I was referring to the fact that many posters here tell me they couldn't possibly wear a HANS because their seat doesn't suit, or there's something to do with their car that prevents them wearing one...I was just trying not to get into an argument and it seemd I failed.....

!

No arguments from me Max, you just had me a bit concerned that I was wasting my time or may do myself more injury than I'd prevent. With my car I basically sit in the tub and the seat is just padding in the same shape. I'd never fit an FIA seat in anyway, the harness is attached to the roll bar but comes through the body just behind my neck, they've never come off during a race but I wondered what difference the seat makes anyway.

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

No arguments from me Max, you just had me a bit concerned that I was wasting my time or may do myself more injury than I'd prevent. With my car I basically sit in the tub and the seat is just padding in the same shape. I'd never fit an FIA seat in anyway, the harness is attached to the roll bar but comes through the body just behind my neck, they've never come off during a race but I wondered what difference the seat makes anyway.

See me earlier post about a Simpson Hybrid, and do some homework about them and you will start to realise that they are a superior product since they have little to do with the seat, and they use your existing belts.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by midgetman

It is madness that someone could line up on the grid in a big powerful car with seven races in a tiddler behind them.

Does it happen? Probably not, but it *could*. I cast no aspersions on the current crop of drivers.

I'm not wishing to add to this argument (although I do have my own views!) but I do know, for certain, of two instances where this happened, both in historic 3 litre F1 cars. The results were not disasterous, but they could have been.

[midgetman]

Graham, spat over! My attention was drawn via Twitter to this, something I'm sure JG was referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuHuD...e_gdata_player

(I hope that's the Monaco link and not the Clay TKM race I was also sharing)

[KMacB]

Originally Posted by KMacB

I dip in here very occasionally, and I never thought I'd be doing so under these circumstances. I'm home a few hours now after a fairly huge accident. Luckily I was able to walk away, and looking forward to some aches and pains later on.
Was racing at Bishopscourt in NI. In a 'pre '55' event, which was a mix of 50's and pre war cars. For most of the race I was swapping places with a Jag XK120, me in front at the last bend to the finish line (where I was quicker) while he was able to pass me during a sequence after the first corner. So basically all I needed to do to win was pass him on the last lap.
Except, in this instance we came up behind two slower cars, and this just as we both exited the final bend. The Jag was in front of me, he went left, I went right.....seconds later I'd clipped the end of the pit wall, launched in the air, flipped over and slid almost 100m on the roof.........
I was the only entrant with a proper modern racing seat, 6 point harness, and cage. Car destroyed, me alive. None of the other entrants would have survived a similar crash without serious injury or worse.
However that was my personal choice to fit a 'historic' with non 'period' safety devices.
Another small injury I noticed later was a bruise on my eyebrow, caused by my (open face) helmet hitting my glasses. Obviously a full face would have prevented this.
Pride (and car) obviously dented, but could have been far far worse.
............Plus I 'won' the race, because it was red flagged, they went back to the previous lap placings...!!

A few photos. This was an impact at maybe 65/70 mph. Hit a tyre wall, behind was the start of the pitwall. Flipped around, rolled and slid for maybe 100m. Note how the front wheel pushed in the pedal box and bulkhead. Very lucky that the steering box was not hit, as the solid shaft would have hit me square. Not a scratch on me, apart from aches from the harness.

[terence]

The position of the wheel is as much cause for concern as stated re minis.Obviously an area that can and possibly should be looked at !
Definately a lot of room for improvement,something like a collapsable steering column? IF the FIA were to allow the non standard fitment!
Something that was tried several years ago and turned down flat on a Healey I built!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KMacB

A few photos. This was an impact at maybe 65/70 mph. Hit a tyre wall, behind was the start of the pitwall. Flipped around, rolled and slid for maybe 100m. Note how the front wheel pushed in the pedal box and bulkhead. Very lucky that the steering box was not hit, as the solid shaft would have hit me square. Not a scratch on me, apart from aches from the harness.

It's good to know that you're OK after that. You were very lucky. Maybe my eyesight's going , but I can't seem to see any front roll bar structure or door bars... the front part of cabin of the car is extremely deformed too.

[Peter Mallett]

I'm interested to know if a non HANS compatible seat would still work. My feeling is that the compatible seats have larger openings to allow for the movement of the belts in an accident. Something with a narrow slot will tend to crush the shoulders.

Another point is that HANS compatible belts are only 2" so you have to wear a HANS if you use those belts. Of course the "slip stop" belts offered by TRS and Schroth are 3" and can be worn with or without a HANS.

[john ruston]

I notice a comment was made that there were no door bars on damaged car.

Assume that implementation of stringent safety equipment being imposed on owners will ensure a continuing trend of copy cars racing and original cars left at home well away from race tracks .

Only upside it will make it easier for people to bend the rules and the whole thing becomes silhouette racing.

Interesting discussion.

A lot of the above can only apply to cars built after late 60's.

[zefarelly]

That Simpson Hybrid thing looks like a decent bit of kit. and stand alone. so a driver could use it in virtually anything with proper belts and potentially benefit?

There's a fine line John . . . its already been crossed many times.

[midgetman]

Peter, I have it from the horse's mouth - Stand 21. The 2" shoulder belts are, shall we say, "marketing led". Stand 21 say their HANS devices are perfectly safe with 3" belts, in fact Andrew thought 3" worked better with the latest non-slip surface and upswept wings although that was opinion not fact.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I notice a comment was made that there were no door bars on damaged car.

Assume that implementation of stringent safety equipment being imposed on owners will ensure a continuing trend of copy cars racing and original cars left at home well away from race tracks.

Well, I would have thought that if there was a stronger, more comprehensive roll/safety structure running all the way to the front turrets that the shell would be better protected too. Aside from the fact that he's lucky to be still with us, I'm not sure that our friend with the Aurelia will be able to salvage that shell. Given the current value of an Aurelia the downsides you highlight would seem to have been worth accepting in this case.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Peter, I have it from the horse's mouth - Stand 21. The 2" shoulder belts are, shall we say, "marketing led". Stand 21 say their HANS devices are perfectly safe with 3" belts, in fact Andrew thought 3" worked better with the latest non-slip surface and upswept wings although that was opinion not fact.

Mine doesn't have the upswept wings. I have previously used it with 3" shoulder straps though.

[Mike Bell]

I'm a bit short of time to have much input at the moment, so having started the thread, apologies for that.

We have potentially unsafe drivers, unsafe engineering, unsafe types of car, unsafe circuit layouts.

Starting with drivers, I agree with Max that more thought should be put into the levels of licence appropriate to car types. This is already in the FIAs minds with some sort of a kilo per horse power restriction (or other way round!) on the 'International Historic H1, H2 & H3', if I have got that correct. Not sure what has happened to H2 & H3 grades as MSA only seem to recognise H1...

So this to a certain extent will make anyone aspiring to race a 3 litre F1 car from scratch having to climb to the level of a Int C before competing, but is that enough experience? Possibly not, but the very small number of such cars competing in the FIA Historic F1 championship, for instance, perhaps makes it less of a concern. I expect if anyone turned up with their new toy and little experience questions would be asked......

But, and I hate having to be specific or morbid, none of the fatalities of 2013 and this year were in F1 cars, CanAm cars, or the like. They were in a Mini, a 2 seater fibreglass production sports car (with hardtop), and two vintage pre-war cars. There was at least one other death in Europe, I believe, in lower formula historic single seater(s). So in my opinion we need to focus our attention on the level that these types of car compete at, it is where the majority of us are, with Nat A or B, or Int C licences.......

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Mine doesn't have the upswept wings. I have previously used it with 3" shoulder straps though.

I'll rephrase what I wrote:

In fact they seemed to think that with the latest be-winged HANS devices the 3" worked better than the 2" but this is opinion and not fact.

Slightly changes the meaning of what I wrote, I didn't meant to imply any difference in performance between the older and newer style HANS devices when worn with 3" belts. Apologies.

[MGDavid]

If anyone wishes to take the ideas further, the ideal opportunity would seem to be:

Historic Committee to hold open forum

Competitors in historic motor sport are invited to attend a forum with the MSA Historic Committee at Silverstone on 17 June.

The forum is designed to give competitors a chance to discuss any historic motor sport topics with members of the committee, which represents the interests of historic motor sport and sets regulations governing the discipline.

The forum takes place at Silverstone’s Stowe Building, starting at 2pm. Those wishing to take part must email technical@msauk.org to register their attendance and indicate any particular topics they wish to discuss on the day.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Competitors in historic motor sport are invited to attend a forum with the MSA Historic Committee at Silverstone on 17 June.

Being a Tuesday afternoon will make it difficult for those with full time jobs, but as things are at the moment, I intend to make the trip.

[FISCracer]

Interesting......some observations

I have four historic cars and my views are different depending on the car. As has been said HANS devices are intended to stop basal skull fractures from frontal impact at very high speed - so not so much of an issue with many older cars compared with modern single seaters and prototypes

My FIA MGB has full cage, side impact bars and a very comfortable Ridgard seat. Having seen a few MGBs in big shunts with a strong monocoque chassis, the seat deforms but does not break in the way modern FIA seats do. Do I want to be wearing a HANS device with a broken seat? If HANS became compulsory I would comply but I'm not sure I would be any safer

My FIA Grantura is similar but with an FIA seat. Frankly my greatest concern is not roll over protection or HANS but the fact there is absolutely no protection for my legs from either a corner being taken out or side impact. I had a road accident in 1994 in a TVR which shortened me by 38mm, destroyed my right ankle and involved 5 months in hospital and 18 months learning to walk again. An experience I would not wish on my worst enemy. Ditto on compulsory HANS

My Marcos 1800 has a plywood chassis and an insert for a seat. The rollcage is good and the plywood strong but I'm not sure either wood survive a number of rolls and my head is pretty much level with the cage albeit under a fibreglass roof. We saw from the dreadful accident at Hockenheim with an Elan what can happen when a roll cage in a fibreglass car is not attached to metal and the car rolls. Given how snug the cockpit is, I'm not sure I could actually get a HANS device on either - a full face helmet is almost impossible.

I would have no hesitation wearing a HANS device in my Attila. I'd have to look into seats very carefully to fit the spaceframe and HANS but given the potential speeds I think to not do so would be 'madness'. However, I think a full cage rather than a rear hoop would be my first safety investment.....and I sit between two 45L fuel tanks with the only requirement for fire safety a single foam extinguisher rather than gas. Most of the McLarens and MkI T70s I'm against don't have a seat just a dip in the ally monocoque.......

If we do have to have more safety rules lets make them the right ones. I'm with GT6Dave about risk and mitigation and Max I entirely concur with your comment regarding some of the less experienced competitors in bloody quick machinery. I've raced for nearly 30 years all round the UK and Europe in many different cars but the step up to a 500hp/700kg mid engined car on historic tyres is enormous and should not be taken lightly.

IMHO there's no straightforward answer

[rbm]

I have thought long and hard before posting on this thread - being one of the statistics from the weekend of the 12th/13th April.


I was in a 1951 500cc formula 3 car which has no ROP and no restraints I tangled with Cooper 500cc formula 3 car which ended up being launched over my car collecting me on the way past resulting a fractured lower spine - this resulted from what was a pure racing incident.

If I had had a roll bar it may well be that the second impact where the Cooper's chassis landed on my back and broke my spine may never have happened if the Cooper had been deflected by the bar.


should I have fitted a roll bar and belts fitted?


obviously the crash has been the focus of quite a lot of discussion in the 500 racing world, no one can remember an accident (post period) involving two 500s that has resulted in anyone being seriously injured so have we become complacent?



well going back to the first impact this was the front n/s wheel on the side of my head as a glancing blow which would have missed any roll hoop and had enough force to push me forward into and to shatter the 6 mm thick perspex screen and pull a number of 1/4 inch bolts with washers through the front bodywork. Had I been restrained it is quite likely I would not be here to be typing this.

At the end of the day we must bear in mind that as it says on the ticket motor sport is dangerous.

Safety equipment has a place but also none of us who race can afford to be complacent about our own safety or our behaviors.


so for me - well the next round of scans etc are in about 5 weeks when I find out if intervention will be required or not

and the car, well it is a mess but it does still run.

and as for the safety equipment well it is personal choice - think long and hard on what is appropriate for you.

Richard

[john ruston]

Well done Richard and hope all continues well with the recovery.

You opinions are more valid than most as you have been to coal face.

[Mike Bell]

Yes, thank you Richard for the thought obviously put into your post. Best wishes for your continued recovery.

[Eric Falce]

I go back a little while to January 66 when brother Frank made up and fitted a roll bar into my E type. The scrutinisers decreed that the roll bar constituted an increase of structural rigidity but I could race but not figure in the results and it had to be removed before the next race, I would not be here now if it had been removed for that race, yes anything within reason to save life or prevent injury I am in favour of but how you decree that, I don't know.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KMacB

A few photos. This was an impact at maybe 65/70 mph. Hit a tyre wall, behind was the start of the pitwall. Flipped around, rolled and slid for maybe 100m. Note how the front wheel pushed in the pedal box and bulkhead. Very lucky that the steering box was not hit, as the solid shaft would have hit me square. Not a scratch on me, apart from aches from the harness.

It was sad to see the photo of the Aurelia in last week's Autosport. Is it repairable ? If so, what's the bill likely to be ? Hope it can be got back out again... but either way, thankful that you're OK.