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Old 27 May 2014, 19:50 (Ref:3411467)   #1
Mike Bell
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Lotus LX- Coming to a Historic Race Meeting near You?

Been looking at the the website for the forthcoming Bonhams auction at the Festival of Speed. Hoping the catalogue was on line (it doesn't appear to be) as included is a drop dead gorgeous Gold Leaf Team Lotus 49....

There is a thumbnail of an Elite on the home page, but apparently not an Elite, it's the unique 1960 'Lotus LX' instead. Coincidentally (?) there is a write up of the car in Octane this month. Built for 1960 Le Mans with 2 litre Climax FPF instead of the usual 1216cc unit, it practiced but never raced. Drivers were to be Innes Ireland and Sir John Whitmore. Now back in original form with Lotus 18 suspension and brakes, and the beefed up chassis, gearbox and final drive, it is surely the ultimate Elite for racing today? I can't believe if sold it will just sit in a collection somewhere and not be fitted with FIA safety equipment, and perhaps 'developed' a little......

Sadly searching the web, apart from a brief mention on Wiki not a lot of info out there, perhaps why the well timed magazine article!

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Old 28 May 2014, 03:48 (Ref:3411593)   #2
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It never raced so not eligible for FIA papers so what do you do with it?
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Old 28 May 2014, 05:18 (Ref:3411613)   #3
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It never raced so not eligible for FIA papers so what do you do with it?
It did race subsequently after sold by Lotus, but not at LM.

And before anyone corrects my original post, the Elite of course doesn't have a chassis, it was the shell that was reinforced to take the bigger engine. Been awake all night worrying about that.

I'm not a betting man fortunately, but my prediction is that if sold the car will be racing with HTP in the next year or two.....
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Old 28 May 2014, 05:26 (Ref:3411614)   #4
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But it raced in original form with 1200 engine rather than 2 litre?

Interesting this one!
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Old 28 May 2014, 06:13 (Ref:3411623)   #5
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But it raced in original form with 1200 engine rather than 2 litre?

Interesting this one!
Just checking you had done your homework, John! According to the mag article (so it must be true!) 'Team Elite' ran the car in Le Mans form until damaged at Rufforth, then stripped it and rebuilt it as a normal 1216cc car. It then raced in this form for several seasons.

So Le Mans Classic not a possibility for the LX, then?
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Old 28 May 2014, 06:23 (Ref:3411627)   #6
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Or anything else in 2 litre form?

Could get a Goodwood entry perhaps as they let the 11 with the top in at the MM.

Depend who enters it.In or out crowd!

Twyman to buy.
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Old 28 May 2014, 07:33 (Ref:3411647)   #7
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
havent read this months Octane yet as I am on a plane tomorrow so saving it! However I am sure I recall reading some time back that Lotus took the 2 litre out as they all came to the conclusion it was inherently unsafe. If Colin Chapman sacrifices power because its unsafe you have to think it was downright terrifying!

JR is right - just because it was intended for LM it never actually competed in an international race so unless Goodwood want it as an oddity it is a club car only
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Old 28 May 2014, 08:00 (Ref:3411658)   #8
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The GLTL 49 is in Motor Sport this/last month, it was at least flagged as an Advertorial in as much as GC constantly mentions it's for sale...
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Old 28 May 2014, 08:33 (Ref:3411669)   #9
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JR is right - just because it was intended for LM it never actually competed in an international race so unless Goodwood want it as an oddity it is a club car only
Read the article, Simon, it doesn't agree with the story about Lotus removing the engine. Obviously it would need to be proved either way.

Sorry, but still reckon that if the next owner wants to race the car, it will get HTP. The bit about 'competing in an international event' in period doesn't seem to be a requirement nowadays. Would be pleased to be proved wrong though!

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Old 28 May 2014, 09:45 (Ref:3411701)   #10
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Read the article, Simon, it doesn't agree with the story about Lotus removing the engine. Obviously it would need to be proved either way.

Sorry, but still reckon that if the next owner wants to race the car, it will get HTP. The bit about 'competing in an international event' in period doesn't seem to be a requirement nowadays. Would be pleased to be proved wrong though!


It wasn't Lotus that removed the engine, it was David Buxton's Team Elite. I've referred to Denis Ortenburger's book to find a more complete answer to the story.

When the car was originally tested (by driving down Tottenham Lane) it was already clear that something was not quite right. "The weight distribution was too far forward or the steering geometry was not right because at speed the car understeered mightily. It also seemed to be a little short on brakes. Rather than sort out the car...Chapman decided to sell it but with a full report on its problems...".

The weight distribution issue seems at odds with the Octane article that states that it was tail heavy. I have to believe that Ortenburger has the correct view as my own Elite has 50/50 weight balance with the 1216cc FWE engine and the 2 litre FPF is significantly heavier.

The car was withdrawn from the 1960 Le Mans with the then owner, Michael Taylor, describing it as having "no brakes and when flat out it handled like a ship at sea".

Again to quote Ortenburger:
"Shortly after Le Mans, David Buxton acquired the car (under the Team Elite banner) and gave it to Bill Allen for a minor club event at Rufforth Airfield in Yorkshire. Allen recalled that the race bagan in light rain and because the acceleration was so good he had managed to put the car in first place by the first corner. When he turned the steering wheel for the right-hander, the car did not respond at all and understeered straight off the circuit. He pulled in after a few slow laps and pronounced the car unfit to race. Back at Buxton's, the FPF was removed and sold and the car placed on stands in the back of the workshop"

The car did subsequently compete with a 'normal' FWE for many years, but its actual race history as a 2 litre consists of a "few slow laps" in a minor club meeting and definitely had no international race history.

Unfortunately, Mike may be right about being able to obtain HTP papers for the car in 2 litre form, although according to everything I've ever heard it has no valid claim whatsoever.
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Old 28 May 2014, 11:52 (Ref:3411746)   #11
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I think it is unlikely.
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Old 28 May 2014, 12:27 (Ref:3411768)   #12
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Unfortunately, Mike may be right about being able to obtain HTP papers for the car in 2 litre form, although according to everything I've ever heard it has no valid claim whatsoever.
But surely, based on the reports about handling problems, the cost and effort of sorting it out would hardly be justifiable, even if possible, no matter how big the development £ pot.

Absent such work one might guess that it would have a short and not very glorious Historic career as a 2ltr. At least in terms of track use.

What's the market for interesting 'show car oddities' like? Can they gain access to desirable events?
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Old 28 May 2014, 12:46 (Ref:3411780)   #13
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Thanks for the further insight, Brian! Agree about the weight distribution, the figures in the mag article look wrong way round to me......

My opinion is that if a well funded racer buys the car with a view to racing it competitively, then the handling issues- whatever they are- would be 'developed' out. There are enough clever people around to do that.

HTP? Still reckon that it could be possible- again, if the owner wants it badly enough!

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Old 28 May 2014, 13:51 (Ref:3411825)   #14
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Someone could always fit a V8 Climax.
There are Team Elite documents (on Rolls Royce paper - where Cyril Embury was working at the time) about the planned V8 engined Elite!
Again it never raced but there is a possibility to get papers for 'historically interesting' cars - cars like the Walker Climax & Kieft F1s.

Incidentally the Team Elite records are available for purchase if anyone is interested?
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Old 28 May 2014, 15:53 (Ref:3411874)   #15
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So who is going to brave enough to buy it to find out?

Think it's the ideal thing for one of those Monaco driving Americans!

Why not 60's 16 cyl Climax!
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Old 28 May 2014, 16:00 (Ref:3411878)   #16
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
i lost the plot...

did the 2 litre Elite practice at Le Mans and was withdrawn after practice due to dubious handling

or was the wayward high speed handling discovered in private pre Le Mans testing ?

that would make a huge difference

when will somebody find documentation that Chrysler Hemis were fitted to Elites and raced in period, of course ??

Rudolf
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Old 28 May 2014, 16:08 (Ref:3411883)   #17
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when will somebody find documentation that Chrysler Hemis were fitted to Elites and raced in period, of course ??

Rudolf
I've just read it on here, so it must be true. That should be good enough for an HTP to be handed out immediately.
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Old 28 May 2014, 16:08 (Ref:3411884)   #18
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Looking at all the stuff that has been produced today they practised then were withdrawn by Team Elite.
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Old 28 May 2014, 16:28 (Ref:3411894)   #19
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Looking at all the stuff that has been produced today they practised then were withdrawn by Team Elite.

I understood that it was a private entry by Michael Taylor but with factory support. It was only acquired by Team Elite after Le Mans.

And to disagree with Rudolph, the key is that it did not start the race. Entering and practicing doesn't count as withdrawing before the start negates the possibility of papers according to the Eligibility Registrar I checked with on another subject.
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Old 28 May 2014, 16:43 (Ref:3411898)   #20
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Think it's the ideal thing for one of those Monaco driving Americans!
Naughty!
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Old 28 May 2014, 18:29 (Ref:3411942)   #21
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there is a possibility to get papers for 'historically interesting' cars
We tend to assume that the issuing of HTPs just covers homologated and other familiar but not homologated racing cars. But there are also categories for prototypes, development cars, historic specials........ The document is just proof that the car is to original spec, which sounds like it should be possible to prove that the LX is. It doesn't guarantee a ticket to any particular race or series, that is the organisers decision to make. Taking Le Mans Classic as an example, the eligibility requirement is that the car raced at Le Mans, so as Brian says, the LX in theory would not get an entry- with or without HTP. Some organisers might accept the car for the publicity and interest it could attract....

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Old 28 May 2014, 21:23 (Ref:3412070)   #22
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....which would then of course give it historic racing provenance and so the snowball gathers momentum!
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Old 28 May 2014, 21:43 (Ref:3412081)   #23
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It would if it was bought by a Frenchman!
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Old 29 May 2014, 05:05 (Ref:3412179)   #24
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It would if it was bought by a Frenchman!



I was thinking exactly the same.

Worth going to the auction just to find out
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Old 29 May 2014, 06:46 (Ref:3412203)   #25
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Worth going to the auction just to find out
It's no good you attending wearing a beret and smoking a Gauloise- we will suss out it is you!
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