Authenticity in Historic F2

[chris bailey]

How strict are the eligibility/period-specific rules in the Historic F2 class? Is it ok to mix engines and chassis from different years, i.e BDG in an early chassis?
Likewise, updated bodywork? I'm guessing that if a car was updated in period, it could be run in it's latest configuration?

[Ted Walker]

You have to use an engine/chassis that was used IN PERIOD with item. the the class weight of the later .eg if you have a March 712 that ran with a 420r in 1976 then you have to conform with the weight of the 76 cars.This has to be supported with period proof,programmes ,photographs etc.

[Ted Walker]

something went wrong !!!!! What I meant to say was with the engine chassis combo if you have a 76 engine in a 71 chassis then the car runs in the class for the latest component

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

something went wrong !!!!! What I meant to say was with the engine chassis combo if you have a 76 engine in a 71 chassis then the car runs in the class for the latest component

Thanks for that, Ted!

Thing is, I have a possible lead on a March in the USA. It's most likely a 74B. The thought was to run it in the UK (and possibly Europe). The simple route would be to stick a 1600 BDA in the car and run it as an Atlantic. However, a friend of a friend has a spare BDG, which could form the basis of a car-share deal, if the engine was eligible. Trouble is, I can't find any direct evidence of a BDG in a March in '74. My only thought was that somebody might have created such a thing in '75 or '76, although whether anybody would have run a one or two-year old car in a qualifying event is doubtful.

Any thoughts...?

[Ted Walker]

As its a 74B you will have to find proof that one ran with a BDG.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

As its a 74B you will have to find proof that one ran with a BDG.

We're not sure whether it's a 74B or a 742 at this stage. Some of the bits with the car seem to point to a BMW engine installation, which might mean the car went to the USA after it had raced in Europe in period. If that turns out to be the case, then it could be an F2 car. The chassis plate is conspicuously absent at this point, although it's existence is being hinted at! The with/without chassis plate is obviously a bargaining tool. Coming back to the engine for a moment, the cost of a BMW motor is beyond our means. My curiosity on the BDG front was sparked by a picture (from Donington) of a 742 with BDG, along with what seems to be a nose section from @ 1976 March. Unless, of course, I've got my wires crossed, which is entirely possible!

[Dan Rear]

Did the Smith/Jones Aurora 742 run a BDG in late 78?

[Jammin]

Sorry for being a newbie to this Chris but would the 742 you refer to have been driven by Martin Stretton at Donington? Im unsure of the class structure but am i right in assuming this was running in an invitation class as it appears to be a hybrid of parts?
Giraffe



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Apr 30 2011, 20:49

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The moment today when Martin Stretton under pressure from Matthew Watts relinquished his lead with an off at the Fogarty Esses that lead to his retirement. Watts went on to win today's Historic Formula 2 race in some style.

By giraffe138 at 2011-04-30

[Giraffe138]

Blimey, I've been kidnapped from TNF!!!!

To quote Simon Hadfield on this subject:

The point was that almost all March formula cars became developed, but that now people are building "menu" cars, ie take that tub, that gearbox, that wing, that bodywork etc all of which may have happened on a car or cars at sometime or another but not necessarily all together or on that particular car, the concept being you can, today, build a better mousetrap! The ethos of historic racing is that a car should represent a "snapshot" of that particular car at one particular point in its existence - if we continue to countenance this concept of menu construction we end up with cars for historic racing, not Historic racing cars.
NB I would point out this is not exclusive to March but the way they were built really helps.

[Dan Rear]

Ray Mallock ran a '75B' in the off F2 race in 1975 with a BDG. Was this based on a 742?

[chris bailey]

Ok! So are we saying that a hybrid (for wont of a better description) is allowed, so long as it can be clearly demonstrated to have been raced in the particular configuration, in period, in a qualifying International event? Presumably, the car would then race in the class appropriate to the most recent major component. So, a 742 March, for example, wouldn't run as a 1974 car if it had an engine, chassis or bodywork from a later evolution of the March 742 upon which it is based? That, presumably, means running to a different weight limit, amongst other things?

A March 74B could therefore run as a 742, so long as the chassis, engine and bodywork is period-specific. It could however run in a later class with a BDG as long as it (or another 742/74B) could be shown to have run with that engine. Add some ballast to make the class weight limit, and away we go...?

[Jammin]

(SORRY) Giraffe im not sure how i did that and certainly didnt mean to, But if i understand you correctly then the car must conform to the rules of the latest parts on the car? or am i missing the point, are we saying if it looks correct then it can be run?

[Ted Walker]

As I pointed out in an earlier thread IF you are running a "hybrid car" then the onus is on the owner the provide PERIOD PROOF of such an animals existance IN PERIOD.

[ascarracinguk]

just out of interest how available are parts for these kind of cars??? or do companies still produce replica bits????

as a spectator/marshal id rather see a full grid of cars which have some original cars, but also have cars that arent necessarily in period ie an engine from 3 years later etc......rather than 6 cars which are perfectly as they were back in the day and the rest sat at home not racing!!

i suppose it relates to the whole appendix k touring car thing in some respects, but i dont really know what the answer is, stop them racing because its not in period and have a race between 6 of you, or let them race, the majority of spectators and racers will love it but some will feel a bit miffed!!!..difficult one!

[chris bailey]

Originality isn't really the issue here. It's more a case of period specification, as I understand it. March used a lot of bits that were interchangeable between cars across a fair few years. I know, I worked there for a while. Making a 742 out of a 74B, for example, is relatively straightforward. Putting a non-period specification engine in it (BDG?) must, however, put it into a different class within the F2 category. At that stage, you might as well update the car as far as possible within the bounds of "what ran in period". It's just that you'd find yourself up against superior equipment (782?), without the benefit of the lower weight limit of a period-correct 742. Mind you, the Stretton car doesn't seem to suffer much, competitive-wise, so maybe the differences are not so great. "Hybrids" do help keep the numbers up, which is no bad thing.

[ascarracinguk]

maybe its as simple as having a class a and b......those in period, and those that are not.....at least that way you stand a fighting chance against cars that are in period, but the hybrid cars are allowed to compete bumping up the grid numbers.....because lets face it....to 90 percent of the spectators theyve got no idea whether a car is in period or not!!!....and do they really care??? probably not to be honest....dont get me wrong, i love historic cars and obviously one in period is better...but as long as its big, shouty and goes like **** off a shovel im a happy camper!!

[SAMD]

Well, much as it pains me to say it, I think those that drive/run original cars should have a bigger input than those who 'only' run period correct cars. I think the class a/b thing should have legs. Because if whatever spec was correct in period to make a car go faster is allowed to rule, then original cars have to fade out of racing. So, original cars, ie; original chassis, original engine type, original gearbox type, should be Class a, perhaps all others should be invitation only so that as many as are required to make a decent grid can be 'invited' but cannot win the race, just the invitation class.
I really need to stop drinking wine in the afternoon Even a Sunday afternoon. It is Sunday isn't it?

[Ted Walker]

Dont think that the series rules are open for debate on this forum,or any other forum for that matter.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Dont think that the series rules are open for debate on this forum,or any other forum for that matter.

Sorry! Not wishing to undermine anybody here. However, we looked at 2-litre sportscars a couple of years ago and were bemused by the credibility gaps that were clearly evident with some of the cars. Presumably, the application of the series rules in F2 are more rigorously applied....?

[Chris Sharples]

Chris,
For HF2 there are a simple and clear set of 2011 technical regulations for everyone to see on the HF2 page of www.hscc.org.uk . At the last Donington meeting (where we had a very good entry) all cars were secured in parc ferme for half an hour being checked over. The scrutineers went through papers, ground clearance, weights and wing dimensions. This will be repeated at meetings later in the year. Ted and I (and others associated with the championship) think that we have got regulations and specifications under reasonable control. However there isn't any complacency in HF2 and there is bound to be a vigorous debate within the club before the 2012 regs are issued.
Chris

[chris bailey]

Well, that certainly improves my confidence in the whole rules application area. Now comes the difficulty of understanding which engines are which. Certainly, in 1974, the only non-BMW M12 engined March 742 was a device driven by Carlo Giorgio. This started out with a BDA, switched to a Pinto (!!?) and then reverted to the BDA at the end of the year, presumably because the Transit van needed its engine back. Therefore, running the BDG is out of the question, as nobody appears to have used one. Looking for one that was used in later years is somewhat counter-productive, as the weight limit creeps up and faster cars start to enter the equation. So, back to the BDA or Pinto. Now, the Pinto route sounds an unlikely option (Giorgio's results back that up). So what capacity BDA? Can you squeeze the full 2-litres from a period-spec (iron?) block? Is a BDA going to be hopelessly outclassed by the BMW M12 brigade? If it is going to be the BDA, what specification can be run? When is a BDA not a BDA? When it's a BDX? I must confess that the whole BD series confuses the living daylights out of me. The BDG we have seems to have smaller spark plugs than a BDA. Is this because the bigger valves leave less room for the plug? Is the bore/stroke regulated (other than in relation to the overall swept volume)? Is there a definitive text out there somewhere, to which I could refer? If we have to acquire/build an engine, I'd hate to build it to the wrong parameters.

[morninggents]

What was the F2 capacity limit in 1974? Presumably 2 litre if BMW engines were the norm.
Do you know what capacity the BDA used by Giorgio?

[rogerwills]

From Wikipedia:

[edit]The BDA series
Cosworth increased its association with Ford in 1969, by developing a double overhead camshaft (DOHC) 16-valve inline four cylinder engine for road use in the Ford Escort. Working from the Kent block, Cosworth created a 1,601 cubic centimetres (97.7*cu*in) for homologation purposes. The camshafts were driven by a toothed belt, hence the name BDA, literally meaning "Belt Drive, A type". Running in Group 2 and Group 4 on either rallying or touring car racing, this engine could be enlarged to a maximum of 2,000*cubic centimetres (122.0*cu*in). The nominal homologation at 1,601*cubic centimetres (97.7*cu*in) capacity meant that BDA-engined cars competed in what was usually the top class (1600*cc and up) so were eligible for absolute victories rather than class wins.
In 1970, the BDC evolution received fuel injection for the first time. Two years later, the BDA series was being used in Formula 2, first at around 1,800*cubic centimetres (109.8*cu*in), until reaching a maximum of 1,975*cubic centimetres (120.5*cu*in) in 1973, as the developed BDG form of the engine, which also received an aluminium block.
The block could also be shortened, starting with the 1,599*cubic centimetres (97.6*cu*in) Formula Atlantic engine in 1970, followed by the 1,100*cubic centimetres (67.1*cu*in) and 1,300*cubic centimetres (79.3*cu*in) variants for SCCA club racing and sports car racing. There was even a one-off 785*cubic centimetres (47.9*cu*in) version built by Cosworth employees Paul Squires and Phil Kidsley; fitted with a Lysholm supercharger it was installed in a Brabham BT28 Formula 3 chassis and competed in the British Hill Climb Championship as the Brabham-Lysholm.[6]
In the 1980s, the engine saw its final incarnations, the 1,700*cubic centimetres (103.7*cu*in) BDR, used in the road-going version of the Caterham, and the 1.8*litre BDT, which powered the never-raced Escort RS1700T, and the more competitive Ford RS200, which was created for Group B rallying. A 2,137*cubic centimetres (130.4*cu*in) evolution model was developed by Brian Hart just as Group B was cancelled by the FIA. The BDT-E turbocharged versions gave over 600 brake horsepower (447*kW; 608*PS) in Group B rallycross configuration.
In 1970, Ford asked Weslake and Co of Rye to build the BDA Engine for them, and by the end of 1970 the production line had been installed at Rye and production was under way.
The Hart 420R owes much to the BDA series, being essentially an aluminium-block derivative using similar heads.

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by chris bailey

Well, that certainly improves my confidence in the whole rules application area. Now comes the difficulty of understanding which engines are which. Certainly, in 1974, the only non-BMW M12 engined March 742 was a device driven by Carlo Giorgio. This started out with a BDA, switched to a Pinto (!!?) and then reverted to the BDA at the end of the year, presumably because the Transit van needed its engine back. Therefore, running the BDG is out of the question, as nobody appears to have used one. Looking for one that was used in later years is somewhat counter-productive, as the weight limit creeps up and faster cars start to enter the equation. So, back to the BDA or Pinto. Now, the Pinto route sounds an unlikely option (Giorgio's results back that up). So what capacity BDA? Can you squeeze the full 2-litres from a period-spec (iron?) block? Is a BDA going to be hopelessly outclassed by the BMW M12 brigade? If it is going to be the BDA, what specification can be run? When is a BDA not a BDA? When it's a BDX? I must confess that the whole BD series confuses the living daylights out of me. The BDG we have seems to have smaller spark plugs than a BDA. Is this because the bigger valves leave less room for the plug? Is the bore/stroke regulated (other than in relation to the overall swept volume)? Is there a definitive text out there somewhere, to which I could refer? If we have to acquire/build an engine, I'd hate to build it to the wrong parameters.

Chris,the Mallock '75B' in 1975 was BDG powered as I said earlier, and reputedly based on a 742. It wasn't a real 75B in any event.

[chris bailey]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Chris,the Mallock '75B' in 1975 was BDG powered as I said earlier, and reputedly based on a 742. It wasn't a real 75B in any event.

Was this the car he ran at Thruxton in '75?

A 742 configured as a 75B, with the BDG, would be an excellent outcome, even at the 1975 weight limit. Which gearbox though...?