AZ is dead

[naca]

Seems they have finally had some sense in V8SC land and reverted to the restart rules they previously had.

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/c...estarts-revert

[bluespur]

That is half way. Just need to get rid of the no passng rule. After all GO means GO....racing should be resumed

[Scrut]

Another not so brilliant rule brought in by Mr Supercars, Damien White that has bitten the dust.

When will he just leave the rules alone, or just leave V8 Supercars.

[GTRMagic]

Not sure Mr White makes the rules unilaterally...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluespur

That is half way. Just need to get rid of the no passng rule. After all GO means GO....racing should be resumed

No passing until the line is standard in basically all forms of motorsport worldwide.

[bluespur]

I suggest not as much as you would think.

Am not convinced that it is necessary, in fact could advance an argument that it is unnecessary, difficult to fairly manage, believe that fanning out with no passing is actually the cause of more accidents than it prevents.

[Trevor]

thanks goodness it is dead and no-one will mourn its passing

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by bluespur

I suggest not as much as you would think.

Am not convinced that it is necessary, in fact could advance an argument that it is unnecessary, difficult to fairly manage, believe that fanning out with no passing is actually the cause of more accidents than it prevents.

While the no passing rule is pretty standard, I agree with your point. I'm sure it's intended as a safety/fairness issue but I reckon once it goes green it should be game on.

If there's a compelling reason to keep the no passing rule be happy to hear it though.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

While the no passing rule is pretty standard, I agree with your point. I'm sure it's intended as a safety/fairness issue but I reckon once it goes green it should be game on.

If there's a compelling reason to keep the no passing rule be happy to hear it though.

is there a compelling reason to not keep it?

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by peckstar

is there a compelling reason to not keep it?

I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. Rules should only be made if there's a compelling reason to have it. If there's not, the rule shouldn't exist.

However to answer your question, the reasons not to have it are:
- Safety: While rare, mechanical issues during a restart have happened and the no passing rules means that when one car slows, all the others have to slow behind it to avoid incurring penalty. The concertina can cause crashes
- Adjudication: 25 cars at the start and making sure that none have passed before the S-F line means it's another area of judge-of-fact to get things wrong.

Neither of these are massive dealbreakers and it's not like the system they have is terribly broken. But why add these complications if there's no reason to have the rule in the first place.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. Rules should only be made if there's a compelling reason to have it. If there's not, the rule shouldn't exist.

However to answer your question, the reasons not to have it are:
- Safety: While rare, mechanical issues during a restart have happened and the no passing rules means that when one car slows, all the others have to slow behind it to avoid incurring penalty. The concertina can cause crashes
- Adjudication: 25 cars at the start and making sure that none have passed before the S-F line means it's another area of judge-of-fact to get things wrong.

Neither of these are massive dealbreakers and it's not like the system they have is terribly broken. But why add these complications if there's no reason to have the rule in the first place.

Your first point is covered by the existing part of the rules that allows a car slowing with "an obvious problem" to be passed by the cars behind it - that has been in the rules for a very long time and seems to work.

Your second point on adjudication is very straightforward - the control line has the timing loops in place so it'll tell the officials exactly who was in front of whom so no judge of fact needed, the timing system spits out the info. It is the info from the timing system that is used to "ping" transgressors passing before the line.

[Woolley]

But what's the point? FCY occurs to neutralise the race so that something trackside can be carried out safely by the personnel doing that. When it's finished then it's safe to race. Traditionally the signal for this is a green flag at the start line and that's sensible, however once it is safe then it's safe and I have never understood the artificial prevention of overtaking before the start line.

This seems to have been introduced (As usual by F1) because the leader is able to choose when to set off, whereas what used to happen on rolling starts was the field formed up at slow speed and the start signal was given as the approached the line. Now they fail to line them up properly and fail to control the speed so then an awkward compromise has been introduced which largely fails to address the results of those original problems.

SC rule development appears to follow the rule of 'she swallowed a spider to catch a fly' with an ever increasing and complicated set of rules to cover the problems that occur from simply failing to ensure drivers obey a local yellow flag, which in the end is all you really need. SC should only really be necessary on ovals where local yellows are impractical.

[peckstar]

No Woolley, safety cars were introduced because a local yellow is inadequate to fix issues where humans need to be on a track. There is no need to put people in danger

We don't allow people to pass before the start line because it means drivers get out of their position before the race is started, effectively last place could jump whenever they wanted without this rule and pass every car on the track. Would need officials to judge this, we already don't like decisions made this way, so not passing before the finish line allows us to use the timing loop at the start line which we trust

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Mixer

No passing until the line is standard in basically all forms of motorsport worldwide.

Yeah....but not for the entire race!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by peckstar

No Woolley, safety cars were introduced because a local yellow is inadequate to fix issues where humans need to be on a track. There is no need to put people in danger

I have spent years trackside doing exactly that in perfect safety. Until driving standards dropped . On road courses the SC is only necessary if the drivers behave irresponsibly, and these days, they mostly do.
There is no point in saying 'No', or it's inadequate because I've been there and done that so I speak from long experience. QED.

[peckstar]

you honestly believe that Safety cars are bad and we should go back to local yellows?

do you think we should get rid of seatbelts too

[Woolley]

Like I said

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've been there and done that so I speak from long experience. QED.

You haven't.

Seat belts are active safety items, not passive. Similarly I support HANS devices because I've seen the benefits of wearing them. I realise you have a very specific way of debating but there is little point in trying to connect two entirely unrelated safety issues. Safety of the marshals is entirely under the control of driver behaviour and I have spent a lot of time trackside in active sessions in complete safety because we know we can trust this particular group, and other times where I wouldn't consider going on to a hot track because of who is on it.

I'm sure you will try to answer this but there will be no response from me if you do. As I say, the difference between us on this matter is I've been there and you haven't.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

No Woolley, safety cars were introduced because a local yellow is inadequate to fix issues where humans need to be on a track. There is no need to put people in danger

Wasn't the original intent of the Safety Car (or Pace Car) to be something used instead of red flagging a race?

It was not the original intent of the safety car to be brought out every time a car got bogged in the sand at Hell Corner (for example)

[NinnyMan]

Originally Posted by one five five

Wasn't the original intent of the Safety Car (or Pace Car) to be something used instead of red flagging a race?

It was not the original intent of the safety car to be brought out every time a car got bogged in the sand at Hell Corner (for example)

Pretty sure it was mainly introduced to slow the cars down so the track marshall's could extract a
crashed car without the worry of having cars rushing by and potentially ending up skittling them.

Unfortunately it now seems to come out every time a car spins or stops even though most times it's not warranted.

[Mixer]

By the way anybody advocating letting cars pass on the way to the line needs to watch the video on this page:

http://jalopnik.com/watch-these-kind...r-m-1568342218

That is why you need to be single file until the line, I think even no overlaps.

[Woolley]

Well... some observations.
hat's a rolling start, not a restart, so double file. And that sort of accident can happen on a standing start (with the added problem of stallers)
The 4th car in line on the right (as you look at it) appears to jump the start and then check up just as the lights go green causing the car behind to take avoiding action.
On the rear facing camera you see the flying Audi move left carelessly and clip the car outside him.
Who the heck built as grass ramp immediately in front of a concrete wall?

It's a mess, but is it because of racing starting before the line? Possibly and possibly not. I'm not sure any of that would be different given either a standing start or a 'wait for the line' start. I've seen very similar results from each type. Other than the launch ramp, now that is special.

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Your first point is covered by the existing part of the rules that allows a car slowing with "an obvious problem" to be passed by the cars behind it - that has been in the rules for a very long time and seems to work.

Your second point on adjudication is very straightforward - the control line has the timing loops in place so it'll tell the officials exactly who was in front of whom so no judge of fact needed, the timing system spits out the info. It is the info from the timing system that is used to "ping" transgressors passing before the line.

Yes, but my first point dealt with the safety issue of it happening. When a car slows in this instance the car behind's first instinct is to back off and it could take up to a second before they recommit acceleration seeing an obvious problem. That's more than enough time to cause a concertina effect.

But ultimately my point was, what is the compelling reason for the rule to exist.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

Yes, but my first point dealt with the safety issue of it happening. When a car slows in this instance the car behind's first instinct is to back off and it could take up to a second before they recommit acceleration seeing an obvious problem. That's more than enough time to cause a concertina effect.

But ultimately my point was, what is the compelling reason for the rule to exist.

We don't allow people to pass before the start line because it means drivers get out of their position before the race is started, effectively last place could jump whenever they wanted without this rule and pass every car on the track. Would need officials to judge this, we already don't like decisions made this way, so not passing before the finish line allows us to use the timing loop at the start line which we trust

[eduardo1]

Originally Posted by peckstar

We don't allow people to pass before the start line because it means drivers get out of their position before the race is started, effectively last place could jump whenever they wanted without this rule and pass every car on the track. Would need officials to judge this, we already don't like decisions made this way, so not passing before the finish line allows us to use the timing loop at the start line which we trust

A Safety Car restart is during a race, not prior to a start, so that's not correct.

However, to take what I think you meant, is that it prevents a driver from making up places unfairly prior the race restarting. If so, that's a fair point, although given it's a single file it's easy to see if anyone is gaining positions prior to the race leader determining the pace.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by eduardo1

A Safety Car restart is during a race, not prior to a start, so that's not correct.

However, to take what I think you meant, is that it prevents a driver from making up places unfairly prior the race restarting. If so, that's a fair point, although given it's a single file it's easy to see if anyone is gaining positions prior to the race leader determining the pace.

easy to see, but not for those on tv who will complain taht the judging is dodgy (see the pit lane speed limit discision at winton)

also cars are allowed to overlap now once the driver accelarates away, just not pass.

The thing is though, do we really want cars to be able to pass in this situation, exciting for tv maybe, but the car behind has already got the advantage of closing up to the car in front because of the safety car. does it need some other advantage just because it got its foot down a microsecond before the car in front.

Also the less opportunitys for overlap on a restart the more likely they will get through the first corner