Marko on Webber

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Better than Lowndes??? Mate, you're not talking to some random european on here who wouldn't know any better of aus fford and couldn't care less, I know the 94 season better than what even Steve Richards would. What did Webber do that was so great in 94?

What an irony that Marko had already Lowndes in his F3000 team in '97 and Craig was fairly beaten by his soon-to-be-renowned teammate Juan Pablo Montoya. Webber was making his form in British F3 at that same period.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

How does a guy finish 2nd in brit fford, to his team mate, progress to f3? (yet his team mate didn't)
How does a guy become the 4th best Merc gt driver, of 4 drivers, and still get the sponsorship to go to f3000?
How does a guy, who finished a clear 2nd in f3000, despite being a clear favourite, progress to F1?

All valid points. What it tells me is that people saw something in him to keep progressing him through the ranks. I don't know the in and out of it but his PI race in the wet WAS SPECIAL. Then again so was his Lakeside drive (oops )

He appears to have those moments where he is quick enough that he ranks in the can do something special...which is in part why I think he never hang around a series long enough to win it. He moved on after a year or two as he had learnt what he could or was losing funding.

I also recall reading that Lowndes towards the end of the season was showing some genuine pace alongside Montoya..but language, lack of experience in Europe/team hurt him. Especially when you have a freak alongside you like Montoya who with similar race pace to Lowndes but far better qualifier challenging for the title

[one five five]

Some just seem to be bagging Webber for the sake of it here.

I'm a Webber fan, but you can't really fault what Marko says, Webber DID drop away in the second half of the year, and did have a troubled end to 2010...lets be honest the Korea crash cost him the championship.

It is very strange though that it is a Red Bull man talking to a Red Bull magazine about a Red Bull driver...

As for Webber vs Lowndes.... irrespective of who looked better in an old FFord twenty years ago, the fact is that Webber made an impression when he went to Europe, Lowndes was all hype no results (irrespective of his living requirements...which quite frankly weren't too bad considering what some others have overcome)

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by one five five

...lets be honest the Korea crash cost him the championship.

It didn't help did it But I don't attribute his failed 2010 campaign to Korea. It was wet, pushing and oops. All the greats drop it in the greasy conditions so excuse a mistake, though it was a costly one.

I attribute more emphasis to his obtuse, stupid, clumsy, desperate move on Hamilton in Australia. Generally a messy race for him and he should have finished ahead of Alonso and bagged 12 vs 2 points.

And secondly the European GP. Faultered with front row start and got shuffled back. Pitted early, clear track, pace to burn where he could have recovered for some good points and walked away with nothing.

So well before Korea he had severely compromised his chances. I put more emphasis on these as the conditions werent as tricky...AND more importantly would have put Webber further ahead given Vettels mech and other problems earlier in the year. Pressure would have been off Webber to beat Vettel and isstead RBR & Webber cover Alonso in the final races.

But yeh, 3 opportunities of good point hauls thrown away in a very tight year where others were making mistakes too. It was the year to get your sh1t together and bag a WDC

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I defer to your Wiki qualified knowledge

...That's pretty funny. It's wrong, but it's funny. If I need any help I do have Australian Motor Racing Year books. Yes I do! 1994, Gibson Commodore approaching the cutting at Bathurst on the cover.

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I will forget that Webber was faster then Lowndes in the same car, despite it being about 4 years old by the time he got it, I will forget that Frank made sure that Craig had the most powerful motor when he ran the car yet the time sheets apparently lie

You forgot Lowndes won the fford title in 93, in a VD rf93. Mark was using it the next year. How can he drive it four years later? Who gets the reigning champs car for their first try in car racing? Also, the comparison with Lowndes is almost irrelevant, since Lowndes wasn't driving it at the same time.

Originally Posted by Mekola

What an irony that Marko had already Lowndes in his F3000 team in '97 and Craig was fairly beaten by his soon-to-be-renowned teammate Juan Pablo Montoya. Webber was making his form in British F3 at that same period.

Yes, very good memory. A bad career move by Lowndes to join Marko. He had a chance to join Supernova and he didn't go, I'm not sure why? I would've picked an weaker English team over Marko. Mark was very good in the ADR F3 in 97. I was close to taking him seriously. He should've stayed another year and won BF3, or try to. The pressure of trying to win a title, and doing it, I think the experience could've helped him win in 10. As far as Lowndes is concerned, I remember a mate of mine saying to me a few years ago about his experience over there "He's too much of a Aussie to make it in F1" He was right

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

All valid points. What it tells me is that people saw something in him to keep progressing him through the ranks. I don't know the in and out of it but his PI race in the wet WAS SPECIAL. Then again so was his Lakeside drive (oops )

He was great that day. He was lucky Monaghan tripped up at the start, though. Otherwise, it might've been a great 2nd place.

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

He appears to have those moments where he is quick enough that he ranks in the can do something special...which is in part why I think he never hang around a series long enough to win it. He moved on after a year or two as he had learnt what he could or was losing funding.

He learnt everything except dealing with the pressure of racing for a title, and winning it. As I've said before, I don't like other people making excuses for him. It's too easy to do so in motorsport, where there are so many grey areas. If he was fair dinkum, he would've won one of the 96 brit fford, 98 gt, or 01 F3000 title. If he lived up to the hype he, his entourage, and the Aus specialist press generated, he'd have knocked off all 3 of them.

[wnut]

From what I have seen I would choose Will Power over both of them!

What say you Formerf1champ?

[FAS33]

And i'd choose Sebastien Vettel over Will Power, I think i just won.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by FAS33

And i'd choose Sebastien Vettel over Will Power, I think i just won.

No doubt! But he wasn't Aussie last time I looked, or has he been adopted too?

[Aysedasi]

Are there many Sebastiens in Australia..........?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by wnut

From what I have seen I would choose Will Power over both of them!

What say you Formerf1champ?

Will was/is very good. I don't remember seeing too many of his races when he was in fford, and in the lower classes in europe (they weren't shown). He ended up 2nd one year, which was a great result. It's fair to say Will Davison (who won) benefited alot from a bigger budget and driving for a bigger team (a team that shouldn't have competed in ffords).

I can speak for the other Asutralians here, but I think the consensus is, from about their early to mid 20s, if you got all three of them to drive a random racing car with little preparation, Craig would do the best, Will then Mark. Definitely Craig would be ahead, though.

[FAS33]

Aus current top 10 drivers:

1 Jamie Whincup
2 Craig Lowndes
3 Mark Webber
4 Willl Power
5 Marcos Ambrose
6 Daniel Riccardo
7 Will Davison
8 Mark Winterbottom
9 James Courtney
10 Chris Atkinson

I dont rate Webber that highly cause he doesn't have as much skill as these other drivers, webber isnt as good under pressure either, and seems to spin out every few races. I think Webber against Lowndes, Lowndes would take him, but even he wouldnt be as good as Whincup, so we dont even have our best man in the F1 Championship. lucky cause we'd be kickin azz if he was!

[Razzzor]

Interesting discussion on Webber's early years guys. I never really saw him race pre F1.

Whincup is young and fast. Lowndes has already done it all. It's like Jeff Gordon vs Jimmie Johnson. Lowndes is not as fast as he once was and Webber is two years older than Lowndes.

Who's faster in their prime, Whincup, Lowndes or Webber?

Will Power is fast as well, but if there's one guy right now that buckles under pressure big-time, it's Will Power. Not just for an Aussie, but for any international driver. He gets to an oval and throws it in the wall all too often.

I'd still rate Webber as #1 Australian driver. It doesn't really matter what happened 20 years ago against Noske and Monaghan. Plenty of drivers were beaten in equal equipment pre-F1 but were clearly faster.

I actually don't think Webber really buckles at the end of the season much at all. It's just that Vettel, in 2010 and 2012 came on so strong in the final third. Webber was still okay. I also don't think Webber's lack of winning or fighting for a title in his early years is the reason he can't wrap up a title now. You're either a person who can't handle the psychological pressure, or you can. Going back to Will, who clearly can't, he's battled for titles. He was 2nd in both FF and F3, won F Holden. 4th in Champ Cars and two more 2nd places in Indycars in 2010/2011 certainly didn't give him the experience to NOT blow 2012 and hand it over to Ryan.

In fact Mark was was close to the championship hunt in most of his pre F1 years. Maybe not leading, but he should know what the pressure is like by now.

Webber's been very close to winning the title in 2010 and looked better than Vettel throughout half of 2012. That's no mean feat. I don't see any other Aussie capable of that. All for a guy who's the oldest on the grid.

I don't rate Will Davison or James Courtney (in particular), anymore. They've both been beaten by their team mates. Winterbottom might not be as strong in qualifying, but he's usually faster than Davison in the race. Things could change this year thoug, Will might come out on top. Courtney's been a backmarker in an HRT. Tander's had 13 podiums in two years, Courtney just 3.

Does Casey Stoner count?

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

In fact Mark was was close to the championship hunt in most of his pre F1 years. Maybe not leading, but he should know what the pressure is like by now.

Webber's been very close to winning the title in 2010 and looked better than Vettel throughout half of 2012. That's no mean feat. I don't see any other Aussie capable of that. All for a guy who's the oldest on the grid.

The fact he didn't win any single seater championships pre-F1 is bound to be a handicap in an F1 title fight. Sure, you could probably learn from your mistakes (certainly Vettel learnt from throwing away the F3 Euroseries title), but I'd say you would lose something by not being able to draw upon the experience of winning a championship.

I can't agree that Webber was better than Vettel in the first half of 2012. What exactly did Webber do besides a great Silverstone weekend and a decent quali lap in Monaco. Everyone he was holding up was quicker than him in the race.

And his 2010 title tilt was mainly good fortune while Vettel lost 60-70 points through poor reliability and bad luck. Webber was unstoppable in Spain and Monaco that year but that's about it. Britain and Hungary were handed to win when Vettel had issues.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

If he lived up to the hype he, his entourage, and the Aus specialist press generated, he'd have knocked off all 3 of them.

I guess that is the thing. I don't blame the guy for what the local press have to say about him. I don't think he is a great driver, but I certainly dont see him as a fortuante hack who is lucky to have an F1 seat.

I see him as a talented guy, who worked pretty hard and ground away to get a seat at the big table. He has given a WDC a serious nudge one year and been competitive in a few others.

I like his approach to racing, I love the fact that he loves sports in general and there is the fact that he is Australian. But thats not even 15% of it.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

Aus current top 10 drivers:

1 Jamie Whincup
2 Craig Lowndes
3 Mark Webber
4 Willl Power
5 Marcos Ambrose
6 Daniel Riccardo
7 Will Davison
8 Mark Winterbottom
9 James Courtney
10 Chris Atkinson

How can you rate Whincup against Webber, Riccardo or Atkinson when they have never raced against eachother??

The last time Power & Whincup raced in a championship year together, it was Will Power who beat him (Will Davison beat them both that year too)

I admire your love of our taxi's , but just because you win a local touring car series does not make you the best driver the country has produced....

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Will Power is fast as well, but if there's one guy right now that buckles under pressure big-time, it's Will Power. Not just for an Aussie, but for any international driver. He gets to an oval and throws it in the wall all too often.

Just one more second place, next season away from being called "Buffalo Bill Will". I thought that up all by myself.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I'd still rate Webber as #1 Australian driver. It doesn't really matter what happened 20 years ago against Noske and Monaghan. Plenty of drivers were beaten in equal equipment pre-F1 but were clearly faster.

Who?

Originally Posted by Razzzor

In fact Mark was was close to the championship hunt in most of his pre F1 years. Maybe not leading, but he should know what the pressure is like by now.

Webber's been very close to winning the title in 2010 and looked better than Vettel throughout half of 2012. That's no mean feat. I don't see any other Aussie capable of that. All for a guy who's the oldest on the grid.

Excuses, excuses...

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Does Casey Stoner count?

What?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I guess that is the thing. I don't blame the guy for what the local press have to say about him. I don't think he is a great driver, but I certainly dont see him as a fortuante hack who is lucky to have an F1 seat.

He's the one who talked it up as well.

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

I see him as a talented guy, who worked pretty hard and ground away to get a seat at the big table. He has given a WDC a serious nudge one year and been competitive in a few others.

I towuld be interesting to see how he'd go in a lesser class, after he finishes F1. With all that experience, he should be a clear stand out. I think he'd still look ordinary relative to others (at Bathurst or in LMP). I won't be convinced til I see it though.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by one five five

How can you rate Whincup against Webber, Riccardo or Atkinson when they have never raced against eachother??

The last time Power & Whincup raced in a championship year together, it was Will Power who beat him (Will Davison beat them both that year too)

I admire your love of our taxi's , but just because you win a local touring car series does not make you the best driver the country has produced....

Yeah but it's more the talent he's gone up against in that series and, well, left them in the dust. I never thought Lowndes would be made to look so average at any time in his career.

Australia has some very good racing drivers. I rate Ambrose pretty highly. Hard to tell his true skill when he races Nascar though.

And this coming from a NZer.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Who?

I dunno, I've had to wiki it :P
Didn't Wendlinger and Frentzen both beat MS pre-F1? Or was it Verstappen?

Did Rosberg beat Hamilton when they were in karts? He progressed up the ladder even quicker.

Hard to tell, when some drivers might have been at different stages of experience when competing head-to-head.

[Malfunction Junction]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I dunno, I've had to wiki it :P
Didn't Wendlinger and Frentzen both beat MS pre-F1? Or was it Verstappen?

Did Rosberg beat Hamilton when they were in karts? He progressed up the ladder even quicker.

Hard to tell, when some drivers might have been at different stages of experience when competing head-to-head.

All 3 paragraphs are correct.

A driver develops differently to another at each level. Learns a bit differently as the cars play into their respective strengths and weaknesses. Some don't adapt to a higher formula, some struggle to make it through and hit their straps when they make it there.

The bag of experience gets more full as a driver encounters more categories. Whether it contains the right experience to pull out for a given scenario is always going to be different, even among those who trod a common path.

It's just one of those things in life and whether it makes a driver "better" than another is moot. It's just different and the sooner we all accept that, the sooner we can get back to bashing Bernie.....

[Oldtony]

A lot of people rate Nigel Mansel. Did big things in F1. Then in Champcar.
Check his results before and after big open wheelers.
Goes to demonstrate (but not prove) that diferent drivers develop to suit particular types of racing.
Meanwhile maybe Marko should start to talk about Jamie. Might give him a bit of an underdog image to make him more interesting.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Didn't Wendlinger and Frentzen both beat MS pre-F1? Or was it Verstappen?

Frentzen was supposed to be 'The Golden Boy' back in their sports car days (Wendlinger, Frentzen, Schumacher). Funny how things turn out.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Frentzen was supposed to be 'The Golden Boy' back in their sports car days (Wendlinger, Frentzen, Schumacher). Funny how things turn out.

Actually, it was Wendlinger, Frentzen, Schumacher and Kreutzpointner - and many thought Fritz had the real talent.......

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Frentzen was supposed to be 'The Golden Boy' back in their sports car days (Wendlinger, Frentzen, Schumacher). Funny how things turn out.

On a similar tack I thought Kovalainen was going to be the next big thing after seeing him beat Schumacher in the Race of Champions.
That didn't happen either...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Actually, it was Wendlinger, Frentzen, Schumacher and Kreutzpointner - and many thought Fritz had the real talent.......

I could I forget him.