what about Pre 63 Saloons...

[zefarelly]

I think the general idea of slowing things down, making it cheaper and more reliable MUST be a winner.

It would appeal to me also if it was pre66 BUT group1, not group 2 . . .ie totally standard, no homologation specials, just production showroom saloons, you could buy in England, striaght off the street . . .

VX4/90 anyone

maybe a Tony LAnfranchi 300E van replica

[zefarelly]

Dave, sad I know, I didn't need to check the book!
1498 only in the classic . . . . there is one race car about . . . maroon.
I have seen Pubes in period race photo's, sorry, did I say pube? I mean't 'Corsair', but that was digging grooves in tarmac it was so heavy, and wasn't released until '63

Ford Pilot . . . . something for the V8 boys . . .in a grey lady stylee with GT 40 running gear, bodywork by Dutton . . . . from Worthing!

[terence]

Just a tiny bit of sarcasm Zef?

[Al Weyman]

The Crimson one races with us in CTCRC and is a very nice old car and goes quite well. Where is this showroom stock thing coming from though the Classic certainly aint that! I think you will have a lot of problems getting people to detune their mounts. Remember Zef I have driven all these old cars in period and I certainly would not want to race them in showroom stock condition!

[Jeremy Hall]

All Allardettes were homologated as GT cars

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

the same was the Brands 6 hour in 63 . . .GP1 (standard) and gp2 . . . .th e cars would do 12 hours if needs be (Marlborough, USA)

I think the more extreme prearation levels have probably been devised around the anomalies of App K . . . .

trus historic racing should be to true historic regs . . . . I originally built my car to the homologation papers, not APp K . . .thats why its so F*****g slow!

One day you must explain, in detail, what you mean by this.

[SZRacer]

Also think this is a great idea.

Really enjoyed taking part in the Pre-63 GT race for its lack of obvious 'hot-rods', and the feel that the results were pretty much 'period'.

A pre-63 Saloon race, strictly policed, would be tremendous fun.

The problem is that the 'Goodwood effect', for better or for worse, has led most to believe that these cars need to be 'hot-rodded to within an inch of their life' to be enjoyable (for both spectators and drivers). Many, I fear, may be beyond the point of no-return.

Me, I'd relish the challenger of driving something patently not suited to being flung around a race track (although I have also toyed several times with a Giulietta Ti).

Why not go the whole hog and insist on full interior, and original wheel sizes...!

James

[simon drabble]

I think the answer is to let anyone prep their car to the level they wish so long as it complies to FIA homologation papers but maybe have a cup each race for the most standard looking car and another for the highest placed car to have driven to the circuit

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

One day you must explain, in detail, what you mean by this.

A simple example . . . when I built my car the App K rule was a 6 point bolted in cage on simple reinforcing pads. put simply it was the installation of a safety device . . . thats changed, I've seen increasingly elaborate cages installed, fully welded and tied in additionally, that done intelligently, makes a shell far stiffer and will undoubtedly improve stiffness and a cars handling potential, and thats before you consider advantages gained by considerable and elaborate measures also taken to modify and reinforce shells with maximum discretion obviously.

these things are not period, they're new.

[zefarelly]

prep to original APp J and homologation papers yes

not APp K.

std body shells

std wheels, enforced ride heights (as homologated!)

std panel work

points!

[simon drabble]

I think you have to allow some flex here - if I prep a mk2 it will be to whatever FIA allows - remember we are all going to run the same cars in other series as well...

The beauty of the pre 63 GT grid was that it was spirit rather than letter.... i.e. as JR said way back on this thread if someone comes along and takes the rip they dont get invited back.... Much as early days of GD - I recall well Carol refusing to let a German team go out at Spa to qualify unless they changed something - they refused she returned their entry fee on the spot!!

It should be noted that Carol is the third musketeer along with Ben and Joe running Pre 63 GT

[zefarelly]

the FiA are irrellevant really, the bottom line is you either have period regs or not, concession being modern safety equipment.

If you did that you'd be unique, and comfortably differentiate yourself from everyone else. It'll never happen.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by SZRacer

Me, I'd relish the challenger of driving something patently not suited to being flung around a race track (although I have also toyed several times with a Giulietta Ti).

How about BMC's "performance" saloons of the period - Farina Magnette or Riley 4/68?

Maybe a Borgward Isabella would be better suited!

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

the FiA are irrellevant really, the bottom line is you either have period regs or not, concession being modern safety equipment.

If you did that you'd be unique, and comfortably differentiate yourself from everyone else. It'll never happen.

It can be done Zef. You put in the regs what you will allow then you only allow what you have put in the regs. You achieve this by frequently checking and taking the strict Carol line.

I agree with your comments on roll cages and chassis stiffening but you write the regs to take this (and MSA safety issues) into account.

[Al Weyman]

I think the crowd would fall asleep this sounds like watching paint dry.

I don't get the passion for racing cars as they came out from the showroom, all it is is a cheats charter as those in the know will have access to all the little tricks to make their 'showroom' spec looking car beat the rest and not only that things like hiding rose joints in standard track control arms and having several sets to test to get the best set up and countless hours testing all costs money.

I found out when I first started circuit racing nievely in Rod Saloons that were meant to be showroom stock even down to spring diameters and thicknesses. I bought an original Sunbeam Ti and was getting nowhere till I see one of the head men running the thing behind the sheds at Snett changing his front road springs, err are you meant to be doing that? Next time out once I learnt the lesson and with suitable springs alround I went from back marker to front runner.

I hate to keep harping on but this prompted me to start the Modified Production Saloons that indeed allowed certain mods and consequently was a more honest championship and controversly cheaper to prepare (at the time I wrote the regs). Same as CTCRC regs now, yes they allow quite a bit of latitude with suspension, brakes and engine internals etc (do you really want to race a pig on drum brakes that wallows through corners) and allow you to build a car that is fun to drive on the circuit and can be cheaper in the long run.

An example, if I was to run my Camaro in showroom stock condition I would have to use a single piston front caliper that I know some people in HSCC Road sports are using on Mustangs and Camaros. I tried, an expensive set of custom pads lasts exactly one meeting as they bend in the centre. I now have 6 pot Wilewood Grand Nationals with huge pads (not discs they are stock GM 12" as they have to sensibly fit within a 15" rim), these cost me less than £100 at a bring and buy sale and I imported the pads at £140 back home, I am now on my 2nd season with the pads and they still have masses of life left in them!!

[simon drabble]

Zef dont box yourself in too tight... few people can afford to build a car for one series. It comes back to making it semi invitational like pre 63 GT - it then becomes aspirational and de facto self governing...
so keep the FIA regs and have the selection committee have final say

[fasted]

If I remember correctly. The ACO once had a clause in their regulations which enabled them to exclude vehicles which were deemed to be. "Not within the spirit of the regulations". (I think Colin Chapman fell foul of it a couple of times)
Simply include provision for this in your eligibility criteria. There will be one or two altercations but anyone organising a race series can`t be looking for a quiet life.

[terence]

Despite some of the negative's,I think something such as this doe's have some credability.Only thing to be aware of would be making sure the policing is finaly done correctly in order to save this going in the same direction as current 'Historic' racing,which,had it been policed properly to start with,would not be the farce it is now!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I agree Jaguar has to run at 1460 kg and is underbraked so could get exciting the 1500 wolsey could be the clever car for value/power one sold this week for a song on ebay genuine barn find in good nick.

Wolseley 1500 / Riley 1.5, that was the first competition car I was involved with. It was used for autocross, driven by two police officers, and painted accordingly. They were known as the Panda Autocross Team!
(The damned thing was always breaking halfshafts, but as they were the same as Morris 1000 etc. replacements were freely available from any scrapyard!)

[simon drabble]

picked up the Jaguar yesterday, as its in bits I am left with a definite feeling I am going to regret this!! Now I am off to our village steam and vintage car show a prerunner to next week's Dorset Steam Fair - a Glastonbury for steam engines and old comercial vehicles - much better than racing! Just to jump threads as I have too many posts to be able to join in JR is spot on on his Forum rant and most of the replies are to - JT, I will certainly comment on any colour or opinion you give in future!

[johnh875]

This is the preamble of the CAMS Group Na historic touring car regs:

Group Na is designed to provide a forum for competitors to race both pre-war production touring cars and early post-war production touring cars in a form similar to racing of the period. To this extent, the modifications permitted are those that are not intended to radically alter the individual vehicle’s character or appearance and will be of an improved performance road car nature, as opposed to making the vehicle totally dedicated to outright competition; the concept being that the vehicles could be driven comfortably to and from the race meeting.

Limited modifications may be made. These should be of a period nature and not out of character with the vehicle or group period.

People wishing to race vehicles of a more highly modified nature should look to other categories, such as Group Nb or an appropriate contemporary class.

This applies to pre-1958 cars, when touring car racing typically took place using standard road cars. The next Group Nb is pre-1965.

[zefarelly]

that sounds good, and the weathers better

I've even found decent Australian beer . . . . (Little creatures)

seriously that ethos would/could/should apply to about 1963 which is when it got a bit serious for an ordinary chap to compete, or people started adding an element of professionalism to proceedings.

having cars MOT'd is a possibility . . .

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

having cars MOT'd is a possibility . . .

I thought about that - I think it is a good idea. As my Jaguar will be hopefully used for road tours as well it will be prepped to be road friendly

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed an MOT requirement might be a good idea but I'd recommend ignoring any requirement to drive to and from the circuit.

As to period modifications, do we really want to see the return of black and silver checker tape and fake bullet hole transfers on the windows?

[zefarelly]

standard but with electronic ignition, a lengthened footwell and aircon you mean ?

latest developments in tin tops seem to centre around handling, engines have been developed so far and in some cases legally as well, or, legal outputs have matched bent ones!

A standard production saloon shell was never built to the standards or accuracies of a 'racing' car, but I think now, when being restored they get 'optimised' to the Nth degree, not illegal according to APp K, but not in my opinion 'period correct' or necessarily in the spirit of production saloon car racing.

theres also (personally) the issue of preserving the shell of a car thats nearly 50 years old and to date original/unrestored and then subjecting it to the stresses and strains of racing . . . thats another subject entirely