Do we need promoters?

[Derwent Motorsp]

I would think the Masters races are quite a bit more expensive than MGCC, SMRC, HSCC and of course GTS which I have experience of.

I still have, like quite a number of other officials and marshals, a big concern about doing my bit as a volunteer for a commercial organisation. It's getting to be quite a hot topic at Regional Association meetings.

[terence]

How is it any different?

Its not as if any organising club doe's not make any money from the events they put on,if they didn't,they just would not survive.I fail to see the difference between the two.Is the HSCC not run as a business on behalf of it's members? If, for instance you wanted a sweatshirt or anyone of thier club items,would you have to buy it?

[Derwent Motorsp]

It's the charity shop V Tesco thing. I am happy to do my bit for my local club or MGCC etc but we now get a donation for the Rally of the Tests, LE JOG etc. It's the putting something back thing. Why should I give up my time and incurr costs (travel, accomodation etc) to assist someone make money by running a business?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Why should I give up my time and incurr costs (travel, accomodation etc) to assist someone make money by running a business?

Absolutely true, you should be re-imbursed. As should marshals at race circuits becasue the circuit owners make money.

At least the promoters are upfront that they're commercial organisations, circuits make money by exploiting the willingness of club marshals/officials etc to run the event for free.

Do we need promoters? Some people prefer to go to a "promoted" meeting, some people don't. If you don't want to go to the expensive promoter-led events, then stick to the clubbies. It's called "choice". But don't decry those who take a different one.

The smart guys are the ones who get to the promoted meetings at club rates

[terence]

I believe that Marshals do get some sort of help from Master's.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Absolutely true, you should be re-imbursed. As should marshals at race circuits becasue the circuit owners make money.

At least the promoters are upfront that they're commercial organisations, circuits make money by exploiting the willingness of club marshals/officials etc to run the event for free.

Do we need promoters? Some people prefer to go to a "promoted" meeting, some people don't. If you don't want to go to the expensive promoter-led events, then stick to the clubbies. It's called "choice". But don't decry those who take a different one.

The smart guys are the ones who get to the promoted meetings at club rates

spot on - in the full scheme of things sadly the entry fee is one of the smaller componants!

[The Flagman]

Hey TB. What assistance do Marshals get from Masters? We might get a contribution which would cover the cost of a cooked breakfast but not so much more than HSCC, CSCC, VSCC etc. The clubs offer what they can but the reality is it in no way covers the true cost.

I have done most of the HSCC meetings this year, some CSCC, Silverstone Classic, Goodwood, occasinal VSCC and even the odd "modern". Enjoyed most except for some big crashes! I don't like to count the cost - its my pastime. We do what we can sharing cars and cheap hotel rooms.

Anyway back on topic. HSCC - great clubbies, VSCC good for their own crowd but really inhabit a different world from the rest of us, CSCC - genuinely grateful to Marshals. Masters - promise lots of entries - rarely deliver - haven't enjoyed their meeting in recent times so not at all in 2009.

We all take different things from different meetings and as long as the experience is positive we carry on. Bring on 2010 cos the diary is a bit empty between now and April and I'll be well bored.

[compte deGraves]

I am old enough to remember when there was no such thing as a promoter for what is still, in essence, club racing.

Having said that is not going motor racing somewhat like going on holiday? Some people like to go caravanning, make their beds, do their cooking and have a thoroughly lovely time.

Other like to go to five star hotels, have their every needs attended to by smartly dressed attendants, and not lift a finger all weekend.

I have raced with the Master series and they give you smart jackets and food and drink. They have attendants ready to help and they have wonderful facilities for you and a guest to use all weekend. You pay for that - fair enough if that is what you want.

Both the 750 Motor Club and the Masters have a place in overall club sport - you pays your money and you takes your choice.

[Alan Morgan]

Well said Monsieur Le Comte!

I've always had you down as a "smartly dressed attendant" sort of guy. How did you find out about caravanning holidays?

...or was it a youthful trip to Mont Ventoux to watch Le Tour?

[terence]

What an excellent comparison Comte,never thought of it like a nice hotel.

[Al Weyman]

Whoa hold on SImon and Peter I conceded to the fact that Lydden was not Silverstone I said it was an attempt to put on an alternative maybe for the less well heeled or those that have got the clout but do not see why their efforts should line others pockets and by and large it worked. Also as I told you Peter at the time you could have had a third race and qually for £75 and if you were really that keen a 4th for £50 quid! Right just wanted to make that clear. Now when I went on to say that I thought Masters £425 was too damned expensive for two twenty minute races and a single qually I was not talking about Spa or Silverstone International or Brands GP I was talking about MALLORY PARK!!! Now I dont know about you guys but apart from the breakfast I dont think there is much to choose between Mallory and Lydden do you infact on balance I may even prefer Lydden.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by terence bower

How is it any different?

Its not as if any organising club doe's not make any money from the events they put on,if they didn't,they just would not survive.I fail to see the difference between the two.Is the HSCC not run as a business on behalf of it's members? If, for instance you wanted a sweatshirt or anyone of thier club items,would you have to buy it?

I can assure you the CTCRC made a very very modest profit from the Lydden event and that will be ploughed back into the club, we also gave gifts, shirts, hats etc to the marshals in appreciation of their efforts and made a generous donation to the Air Ambulance service.

[MartinSmith]

Derwent, why did you not name this "do i not like masters?"lol

To keep a balance, can we please give examples of other "promotors" out there?...or are we now saying that Masters are the only promotor (even though they are not soley a promotor but I wont go down that route again) I have not seen any other example of a promotor on this thread

I once was reprimanded on this site for enciting a debate that appeared to become very one sided and was told that it was "unfair as clubs cannot answer criticism on the forum" the thread in question was closed because of it.

Just to confirm, i do not work for Masters, i am not on their payrole, nor do i sit on their committee etc. I dont receive anything from them in regard of money for the work I undertake when at their meetings. Im not a groupie of Masters, Ron, Christopher Tate (although my son loves his commentary of le man...then again he is only six...he will learn.lol) or any other member of the masters team. I love historic racing so I volunteer to work at their meetings thats all. I like debate i think it is good and healthy to have them, but i now think this thread is not a debate, its a pop at them with a few of us defending them. as i said, can we give other promotors as an example?

[Al Weyman]

As you said before Claire at the end of the day you cut your cloth accordingly, I can see the attraction of what they are doing and are obviously doing a very good job as my local pub landlord who charges 20p a pint more than the pubs in the town says, he does so as he gets a better class of punter in the place ;-).

[john ruston]

Four different promotors were mentioned by me earlier in the thread.
In this case I don't think anyone is having a go at Masters just using them as a business organisation run to make money for the owners against the alternative club organisations run on behalf of members for the members and any surplus could be paid back to those members if that is what the members want.
The point was also raised that in order to make this money the businesses rely on people to work for free and there is a ground swell of opinion in the regions this should not continue.Suppose Masters were used as that is the organisation most discussed on here and there is a certainty that any views will get a very pro or anti reaction from those with entrenched views and discused by the others.
Certainly it is our intention to back AMOC meetings next year which offer so much better value than the corresponding private organisation.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Its not as if any organising club does not make any money from the events they put on, if they didn't, they just would not survive.

Not entirely true, Terry. Many organising clubs lead a hand to mouth existence, especially at the moment, and may be relying on club reserves, sponsors and donations to survive.

[terence]

Fair comment John but that was not implying they make a lot of money.There has to be some cash-flow,even if it covers the postage/program printing etc.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Now I dont know about you guys but apart from the breakfast I dont think there is much to choose between Mallory and Lydden do you infact on balance I may even prefer Lydden.

This is why this thread exists. As it happens I got my first pole position at Lydden and I've had reasonable success there. But the place depresses me royally so I won't go back. When I ran with the CTCRC I refused to go. Mallory is ok and I've had some good times there. That said had I entered for a 45mins pit stop race, to be told it was a 20mins and 25mins double header, I think I would have declined.

But that is the choice you get with promoters. I'd feel guilty about letting a club down.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Four different promotors were mentioned by me earlier in the thread.
......

So can you use the other three now as examples then, because , although you may have mentioned four, you've continued to use Masters as the example of what in your opinion is wrong with the world of Motorsport re promotors John, as you said earlier, lets compare apples with apples and not just have a pop at the one tree

Peter, re your post, good point re the double header, think it may be an experimental thing but im not sure because, as I said earlier, I dont work for them.

[Tom Walker]

Some knickers getting in a twist here, I think. Motor Racing Legends are another firm that organise racing, and I compete with them in the Woodcote Trophy. A friend of mine races with the AMOC in his AC Ace.

I pay £780 for a one hour race, with the requisite qualifying.

Mark pays £220 for 20 mins with the AMOC, with quali.

For him thats £660 per hour pro rata.

This year I raced at Silverstone Historic on the GP circuit, Donington and at Spa. The AMOC were at the usual UK club tracks, including Silverstone Inter last weekend. I would gladly pay a small premium to do Spa, but other than that the racing is thus similar.

Legends usually give us a nice meal, and always somewhere under cover with coffee and drinks available. I drive my old banger to the circuit, with a tent in the boot, so this is doubly welcome !! This is in the price, and not to be sniffed at. So factor that in somehow.

I dont know what you Masters punters pay per race, but if the difference for your week-ends sport is less than £120, (depending on how you value the hospitality), per race hour, in the comparison I have made "off the cuff", then I'm not sure there is such a gulf in cost.

Now having said all that, I am seriously considering cutting back and racing only with the VSCC and AMOC this year for the following reason...when you sign up with Masters, Legends etc, they like you to enter for a full season, promoting a "series" , with points, prizes, and rosettes for all. For obvious financial reasons. This then becomes a serious cash commitment for the entrant. If you speak to Masters, they are perfectly straight about giving first call on entries to those who commit to a full season. Fair enough.

But most of the UK clubs will take entries on a race by race basis, so you can cut your cloth accordingly. The other big factor in cost is travelling abroad. Masters et al organise a lot of Euro racing, which is more expensive to attend. Staying at home saves money, and we are lucky to have the most diverse range of circuits in the world on which to play.

To sum up, I think the professional organisers do a great job. I dont believe they take barrow-loads of money home with them. I dont think their basic pricing is far out, but I do think that, whatever you read in the papers, the recession will bite badly for a long while yet, people will be looking to save money in 2010, and that may benefit the "run for their members" clubs here at home.

[simon drabble]

Claire I think the reason for using Masters is simply that they are the only promotor capable of hosting an event on a stand alone basis.
Carol, Flav and Vanessa, and Pre 63 and Legends all being very specific in what they do although having said that if they all linked up with HGPA and Duncan Ragbag they could put on quite an awesome meeting (from my point of view).
The difference between Masters and the others are that Masters is purely run to eventually create a return on equity for its shareholders rather than hobbyists (certainly the case with Carol and Pre 63 and the Marcais' - not sure about Legends). To that end they are more akin to the HSCC model.
There is no right or wrong as its a pure supply and demand service industry. I think we are now going round in circles in normal ten tenths stylee!!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Tom Walker

.....when you sign up with Masters, Legends etc, they like you to enter for a full season, promoting a "series" , with points, prizes, and rosettes for all. For obvious financial reasons. This then becomes a serious cash commitment for the entrant. If you speak to Masters, they are perfectly straight about giving first call on entries to those who commit to a full season. Fair enough..

Tom, Good point and good post I think, just one thing to confirm (sorry but I feel I must) Masters do not award points at all....otherwise that could constitute a championship and they are not that at all. Masters provide a series of invitation race meetings

Ta
Claire

[compte deGraves]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Well said Monsieur Le Comte!

I've always had you down as a "smartly dressed attendant" sort of guy. How did you find out about caravanning holidays?

...or was it a youthful trip to Mont Ventoux to watch Le Tour?

When I was a student in England I went on a caravan holiday. Just once - but that is not to say that caravanners do not have a marvelous time and spend but a little money.

If you have little money and want to compete at the track then there is nothing better than the 750 MC. Lovely people and Mallory is Mallory whether you pay Masters or 750 to be there.

I am now at an age when I like to be pampered most of the time. I have worked very hard all my life and as La Comtesse has lost all interest in my physical well-being I am most grateful to Masters for pampering me a bit at the racing circuits.

[terence]

Is that a violin I can hear in the distance?

[johngee]

I don't propose to add to this debate as I have my own private views and some of those are based on a degree of confidential commercial knowledge (although, like Claire, I don't work for Masters nor am I renumerated by them).
However, one point I would like to make. Masters and the other so called 'promotors' mentioned, organise their races and the running of those races and/or events solely (at least from my perspective and involvement) for the benefit of the competitors without the political interference and pressure that is apparent in some organising clubs.
Put another way, you may choose the so called democracy of a club where decisions are made by committee who may have their own agendas. The organisations cited (Masters, Motor Racing Legends etc., are free of such what I choose to call 'political interference' and are run for the benefit of the competitors who are customers in a competitive marketplace and, I believe, are treated as such.
Both systems have their place and as already been stated, "you pay your money and take your choice".