Buschwhacking (merged)

**Craig** · 4 Mar 2007, 15:36 (Ref:1857994)

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/p.../1027/SPORTS06

What are you views? I like the idea of limiting the number of races a Cup driver can run, would it work?

**FIRE** · 4 Mar 2007, 16:01 (Ref:1858004)

Limit the number of races Cup drivers and teams can run.

Busch should be a learning school for new talent and a series for smaller teams who have not the budget to run in the Cup.

ss_collins · 4 Mar 2007, 16:18 (Ref:1858009)

but the cup drivers add to the series I like it how it is

**Craig** · 4 Mar 2007, 16:35 (Ref:1858015)

Adding is fine, I wholeheartedly agree, it must even help the guys running Busch get valuable experience against the top guys in their field. But I don't think allowing Cup drivers to dominate the series, to the point the smaller guys don't get a look in, is healthy for the series.

**FIRE** · 4 Mar 2007, 16:48 (Ref:1858021)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Adding is fine, I wholeheartedly agree, it must even help the guys running Busch get valuable experience against the top guys in their field. But I don't think allowing Cup drivers to dominate the series, to the point the smaller guys don't get a look in, is healthy for the series.

I agree

Knowlesy · 4 Mar 2007, 17:30 (Ref:1858045)

I think in some cases, Cup guys should be allowed full seasons like, say, if they are rookies (this is biased I know!) without being beaten down as an evil Buschwhacker!

It's a tough one. The presence of the Cup guys adds a lot to the Busch Series and it would be hard to see it without them, but they do dominate a bit much.

It is a difficult compromise to accommodate both though.

**Craig** · 4 Mar 2007, 17:43 (Ref:1858052)

Should true 'rookies' be in Cup anyway, though? Surely they should be encouraged to graduate through Busch? If they choose to run in Cup straight away then, frankly, tough on them, they'll still get a limited number of outings in Busch to use as they see fit.

kelvin88 · 4 Mar 2007, 17:44 (Ref:1858053)

limit the number of cup drivers per race and have them on rotation through out the season so a cup driver cant win the series. This would force the cup teams with busch cars to employ new drivers.

Knowlesy · 4 Mar 2007, 18:12 (Ref:1858067)

If someone wants to employ a NASCAR rookie in cup then they should be able to do that. They should also be able to run them in as many series as they see fit to gain experience of the racing and the tracks.

At the end of the day, a 'rookie' will not trouble the frontrunners in Busch that often anyways.

The problem is the likes of your Kevin Harvicks etc... who come in and crush everyone time and again. A rotation policy sounds a good idea, but then you'd have people *****ing about not running at certain tracks!

Hazza · 4 Mar 2007, 22:22 (Ref:1858471)

Yeah. It's a conundrum, because I can remember watching Busch about 7 years ago and it wasn't the same without the Cup runners running it, now, it's more interesting, but tougher on the regulars.

Edwards can't count as a Buschwacker as he's only done like 2 fulls seasons of cup, all while running Busch, so he's more a Cupwhacker

**Craig** · 4 Mar 2007, 22:33 (Ref:1858488)

No one's suggesting banning Cup drivers outright. Just look at the race that's just finished, it'd not have been anywhere near as exciting had it been Busch series regulars only, but the emphasis in the championship has to be on the full-time Busch regulars, surely?

Speed-King · 4 Mar 2007, 22:41 (Ref:1858498)

Well, as a Sportscar guy I'd have ben fine with Pruett and Said going for the win^^

kingfloopy · 4 Mar 2007, 23:31 (Ref:1858530)

I'm conflicted as the Busch series needs the Cup guys and teams to survive. But it's viscous circle as they are the reasons for it as they have driven out a lot of the independent teams out by driving up expenses and taking sponsors away. I would like to see more Busch only teams, but its hard to accomplish.

One way would be to limit the number of double weekends Cup drivers can run. You can't merely limit overall Busch races because someone will lose a Cup ride and end up taking a step back. There could also be a system where drivers have to "declare" a race. That is they say which race on a weekend they want points for and they only get points for that race. They could also receive reduced money for the race they don't declare.

Another alternative and one I like is to force large teams to align with independent teams in order to be able to run Busch races. They aid in sponsorship and engineering support for the other teams and get to have drivers in the race. NASCAR could also start helping connect sponsors to smaller teams and bring new teams into the sport.

It's a tricky situation for sure.

J.D.

deeks6 · 4 Mar 2007, 23:33 (Ref:1858531)

I don't think there should be any Buschwhackers at all. It should be like the V8SC Development Series in Australia - teams can run a car(s) in the series but the drivers cannot come from the main game. Most teams trial their rookies or develop drivers this way.

kingfloopy · 4 Mar 2007, 23:41 (Ref:1858536)

I think the Indy car series limit drivers to one series too right? Like an IRL driver can't run the weekends Pro-Series race and a Champ Car driver can't run in the Atlantic race right?

J.D.

Fish_Flake · 5 Mar 2007, 06:28 (Ref:1858643)

The Busch Series was on hard times several years ago. The past champions, for the most part, hadn't been able to capture big success in Cup, while the newest wave of young drivers had been bypassing full-time Busch Series competition in favor of a selective mix of ARCA, Busch, Truck, and Cup races. Sponsorship was a joke; a lot of the cars had decals advertising companies that no one had heard of, and many of those companies weren't paying the bills. A great number of other teams didn't have sponsorships in line at all. Angela's Motorsports is the most egregious example of the corruption and despair going on in that period, but they were by far not the only one. Inevitably car counts came tumbling.

At the same time, NASCAR was beginning to limit the amount of testing Cup teams could do during the season, as well as the the phasing out of Saturday "Happy Hour" practices. Since many teams and drivers had part-time Busch programs, they decided to expand those operations for seat time. The timing was perfect, as the schedules were being consolidated to maximize the number of Busch/Cup doubleheader weekends, and NASCAR was desperate for entries with stable financial backing. So, Buschwackers quickly took over into the dominant position they have today. The big-name drivers and teams also began the overnight commutes on the weekends when the Busch and Cup series were at different venues (at significant expense), because the fans weren't coming out to see the Busch regulars.

If you look at the decals on the major Cup team's Busch cars, it is obvious that they have considerable financial backing compared to many lower-tier NEXTEL Cup teams, let alone the other Busch teams. The gap is just too great. I think that another big problem is the fact that a lot of the big teams are so eager to find the next great young talent, and are rushing 18-year-old kids who are maybe a year out of go-karts into high-profile drives, a big case of too much, too soon, and I am very concerned that NASCAR is not taking this issue seriously enough. The Stephen Leichts and David Ragans of the racing world are being given free passes to the top levels of NASCAR, regardless of whether their results justify it, while the quality and integrity of the sport crumbles. Magnifying the situation is the fact that the NASCAR Elite Regional Series were discontinued after last year and consolidated into the two regional Grand National series, which use cars of the same specs as the Busch Series. The big teams with development programs thus figure "in for a nickel, in for a dollar," pushing their young drivers into Busch without any time in the regional series.

I say that instead of attempting to restrict Buschwhacking, which isn't going to work in the present condition of NASCAR, the Busch Series should be dropped altogether as part of a major overhaul of the hierarchal structure of NASCAR. I've said all along the NEXTEL Cup Series needs to decrease the number of races in a season while increasing the number of venues. Every track is limited to one race, with the exception of one ISC track and one SMI track. Daytona would be the ISC track, while either Charlotte or Bristol retains its second date, dependent on whether Charlotte wants to remain host to the All-Star Challenge. Meanwhile, Mexico City, Kentucky, Milwaukee, Nashville, Montreal, and one other track currently not on the NEXTEL Cup schedule are reward with dates, for 30 races in total. The cap on how many cars a team can field is lifted, so that the current Buschwhacker operations can become Cup teams (another reason for the prominence of Buschwhacking). Instead of one single-car qualifying session to determine the Cup series field, only the top 8 in qualifying are automatically make it into the race. Instead, the rest of the field takes part in a sprint race on Saturday (when the Busch Series currently races) to determine the rest of the grid. The Truck series remains the same, because that format is working perfectly, allowing up-and-coming and veteran talent prove themselves in an environment where independent teams can survive even with the big boys interloping from time to time. The current Grand National regional series remain to provide a place for the small players of NASCAR to thrive.

Jacko44 · 5 Mar 2007, 12:56 (Ref:1858897)

If they limit the amount of Cup regulars in Busch you wouldn't have the regular people dominating every race and you might get closer racing seeing as experience levels may be closer because more younger drivers (or older less-experienced drivers) would be racing. But then again it may cause more crashes... Who knows.

Dudley · 7 Mar 2007, 12:51 (Ref:1860556)

The thing is, I don't watch busch apart from road courses. If I want to see the middle half of the cup field race than I'll tape cardboard over the left and right 25% of my TV and watch a cup race.

It's cup, only worse. It should be the young guns.

It also makes it a ****er to be noticed, the top 8 last year were cup guys, the rookies in NNC this year mostly made their name in the trucks when there's fewer cup drivers overshadowing them.

Neil22 · 11 Mar 2007, 18:00 (Ref:1863716)

If they use the COT only in Nextel Cup, you will see a lot less cup drivers in the Busch Series since the data accumulated won't transfer directly over to the Cup series. I hope this pans out, I miss seeing the locals from here in the Busch series.

kingfloopy · 15 Mar 2007, 23:57 (Ref:1867792)

There's some talk of the Busch series getting the current Cup cars when the CoT comes into play full-time. So maybe 2009. There is also talk the Busch series could have pony cars like the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger as those cars come into production over the next few years. I'm not sure what Toyota would run. maybe the Celica. This would make an even wider gap between the Cup series and Busch series. I'd think some people would still run though to make money and chase wins.

J.D.

johntt · 15 Oct 2007, 12:38 (Ref:2040667)

In your opinion:

1) Is it a problem?

2) If it is a problem how would you solve it?

IMO it is a bit of a problem, keeps young talent down but it enables people coming into nascar from outside (Montoya, Allmendinger) the ability to get up to speed while running in the cup.

I think they should put a limit on the number of Busch races a driver can contest after making their cup debut. I'd say the equivalent to 2 1/2 seasons with road courses exempt from the race limit.

**Craig** · 15 Oct 2007, 14:43 (Ref:2040785)

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=buschwhackers

Kirk · 15 Oct 2007, 16:02 (Ref:2040843)

NASCAR’s conundrum, is you have spectators taking in Busch races, who normally may not. Cup regulars are an attraction that generates revenue. Rather than eliminate that altogether, a possible solution would be to sanction the number of “Buschwacker” positions for each race, and make the Cup regulars qualify amongst themselves, to fill those positions. Cup rookies should be allowed to qualify in the regular Busch field.

kingfloopy · 16 Oct 2007, 21:57 (Ref:2042251)

Merged the two threads on this into one.

J.D.

ThePenguin · 16 Oct 2007, 23:37 (Ref:2042293)

I think that NASCAR needs to change what is going on with the cup drivers doing the Busch Series, but I really don't have any ideas myself on how to do it.

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