[Tech Issue] The probable future of F1 engines

[Marbot]

At least, according to some engineers that James Allen has spoken to.

500cc turbos! I reckoned on as much as 1000cc myself.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/1...e-the-engines/

[duke_toaster]

I don't think we'll get 500cc motors in the next generation, that would be a huge step down in power and would be a cost nightmare as they would be so unreliable.

[Juarez Jed]

1000cc turbos running on ethanol will do me and that cranky old bag mother nature

[johntt]

As engine technology progresses we'll be heading towards that, though there would probably be a generation of 2.0l turbos before that.

Ford have a 500cc two cylinder twin turbo capable of 100bhp, the amount of power your average 1.6l NA inline four currently does, giving better fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

[Sodemo]

300-400 horsepower? Isn't that F3 - GP2 territory?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by johntt

Ford have a 500cc two cylinder twin turbo capable of 100bhp, the amount of power your average 1.6l NA inline four currently does, giving better fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

Honda had a CX500 turbo road bike in the early eighties that put out around 97 bhp.

Lots of car manufacturers are now down-sizing their petrol engines and sticking turbos on them (Typically 120-160 bhp from a 1.4 turbo). They are much more economical than equivellant power naturally aspirated engines.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

300-400 horsepower? Isn't that F3 - GP2 territory?

They will also recover additional power via hybrid systems etc.

Also, what will "F3 -GP2 territory" be in a few seasons time?

[ss_collins]

In short I think James Allen has either been the victim of a urine extraction operation or he has misunderstood the Global Race Engine concept. The first series looking likely to adopt a version of the GRE is the WRC but F1 will likely go the same route.
F1 engines will almost certainly get smaller (1600cc - 2000cc) and more efficient. Probably based on the GRE concept, this could all be backed up by various energy recovery systems to give a high performance level.

I'll put what some top engineers actually said up in the new year. I'd do it sooner but that would involve going to the office

[kartracer41]

Glad people are still buying into the global warming hoax. I can see the need to be more efficient, and move to newer technology, but lets cut the crap on the reasoning behind it. Unless the KERS systems are going to promote development, rather than be too restricted and limited, then I don't see much purpose in them on a fossil fueled powerplant. Just like current hybrids, that are outperformed by diesels in most circumstances.

[JeremySmith]

What part of the world are you from then...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by kartracer41

Just like current hybrids, that are outperformed by diesels in most circumstances.

Agreed. Honda and Toyota's gutless petrol hybrids (Insight, Prius) are out-performed in every area by most manufacturers 1.4/1.6 turbo diesel engined cars, and at less cost to the environment.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I'll put what some top engineers actually said up in the new year. I'd do it sooner but that would involve going to the office

The FIA recently put forward the idea of 1000cc compound turbo engines, but that seems not to be the case now. It looks like we're heading headlong towards the universal 'one-size-fits-all' (maybe even made by just one manufacturer!) petrol/diesel road/racing engine.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The FIA recently put forward the idea of 1000cc compound turbo engines, but that seems not to be the case now. It looks like we're heading headlong towards the universal 'one-size-fits-all' (maybe even made by just one manufacturer!) petrol/diesel road/racing engine.

If that is the case we are headed towards the probable extinction of motor sport as anything other thana sort of down market entertainment medium like Wrestling.
The turbo compound 1ltr formula with all the energy saving and enhancement modes alowed sounds about right. And of course some design freedom to make the whole show technically relevent.
KERS was a smart moove, strangled at birth.

[RotorFan]

You can get 1000 HP out of a 1.3 litre engine. But then thats 30 year old rotary engine tech, too superior for F1

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

You can get 1000 HP out of a 1.3 litre engine. But then thats 30 year old rotary engine tech, too superior for F1

1500 bhp from 1.5 litres of V6 turbo wasn't unheard of in early 80s F1.

RX8 owners will tell you that the engines are relatively powerful and quiet, but lack torque, eat fuel and oil, are high polluters and you'll also become best friends with the Mazda dealership, because no one else will touch them.

[Marbot]

I also posted this article in another thread, but it seems relevant for this one too.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80685

[Bononi]

Too much time on someone's hands.

[Sodemo]

F1 cars should be producing approx 1000BHP, whatever configuration I am open to debate on, but I dont want to be watching cars with F3 levels of power. Make it a V6 turbo, or a straight 4 supercharged, whatever, it has to be approaching 1000BHP.

[duke_toaster]

Having read this thread so far, I'm going to make a modest proposal here.

• 2000cc twin turbo
• Minimum of four, maximum of six cylinders
• Rev limits.
• A good old CART-style popoff valve that shuts off the turbo if the pressure gets too high
• VVT, VGT amongst others allowed provided the software is homologated.
• All computer innards must be on a standard chip with a full copy of the source code to be given to the FIA and then released to the other teams at the final race of the season.
• Frequent chassis dyno tests to ensure that the engines aren't getting more than 750hp. If they are, the boost pressures or rev limits will be cut down.
• Five engines per season.
• A method of ensuring that the teams lower down the fields will get brand new motors for a reasonable cost.
• Four year engine cycle, certain parts may be tweaked between years, software to be homologated for a year provided no new hardware is needed.
• Maximum fuel use per race.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Having read this thread so far, I'm going to make a modest proposal here.

• 2000cc twin turbo
• Minimum of four, maximum of six cylinders
• Rev limits.
• A good old CART-style popoff valve that shuts off the turbo if the pressure gets too high
• VVT, VGT amongst others allowed provided the software is homologated.
• All computer innards must be on a standard chip with a full copy of the source code to be given to the FIA and then released to the other teams at the final race of the season.
• Frequent chassis dyno tests to ensure that the engines aren't getting more than 750hp. If they are, the boost pressures or rev limits will be cut down.
• Five engines per season.
• A method of ensuring that the teams lower down the fields will get brand new motors for a reasonable cost.
• Four year engine cycle, certain parts may be tweaked between years, software to be homologated for a year provided no new hardware is needed.
• Maximum fuel use per race.

Some very worthwhile points inthis suggestion.The only one I would take issue with is the limit of 750hp.The rev limit and the fuel usage,combined with the need to make an engine last several races should provide enough limitation.
There have been suggestions that a general purpose engine could be recommended by the FIA for a number of different activities.It may turn out to be a four cylinder with no turbo for some series and with at least one turbo and more than one boost level for other disciplines.
It would be good if the next set of regulations encourage creative engineering rather then the endless refinement of trivial details that we are becoming too familiar with.Improving the specific fuel consumption and keeping the speed below 15000 rpm might be helpful in any attempt to justify the endeavour to shareholders or politicians.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Too much time on someone's hands.

It maybe that he's just interested in F1.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

It would be good if the next set of regulations encourage creative engineering rather then the endless refinement of trivial details that we are becoming too familiar with.Improving the specific fuel consumption and keeping the speed below 15000 rpm might be helpful in any attempt to justify the endeavour to shareholders or politicians.

Agreed. Spending millions to improve upon 20,000 plus rpm is a do-able but pointless excercise. Even 15,000 rpm is way above what is needed in the 'real world'.

[V8 Fireworks]

F1 cars should be exciting though.

Those are good points, I think a 1000 cc turbo with up to 8 cylinders would provide good excitement for an F1 engine!

[Alex Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by Marbot

RX8 owners will tell you that the engines are relatively powerful and quiet, but lack torque, eat fuel and oil, are high polluters and you'll also become best friends with the Mazda dealership, because no one else will touch them.

Just a small note (because it's something that bugs me) the oil consumption of rotary motors is deliberate, that's how they stay alive!

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Honda had a CX500 turbo road bike in the early eighties that put out around 97 bhp.

Lots of car manufacturers are now down-sizing their petrol engines and sticking turbos on them (Typically 120-160 bhp from a 1.4 turbo). They are much more economical than equivellant power naturally aspirated engines.



They will also recover additional power via hybrid systems etc.

Also, what will "F3 -GP2 territory" be in a few seasons time?

As suspension and tyres and aero gets more advanced cars need less power to maintain the same lap times.

A modern GT2 car with a 4.0l engine and around 400bhp is pulling the same laptimes around Mosport as an 8.0l 1100bhp Can-Am care used to.

[Belatti]

Originally Posted by Marbot

1500 bhp from 1.5 litres of V6 turbo wasn't unheard of in early 80s F1.

They lasted for 3 or 4 laps. Some more miles and they exploded.

Modern F1 engines are intended to last 3 or 4 GPs