F3 Euroseries new format confirmed

Kicking-back · 8 Sep 2005, 17:24 (Ref:1402121)

The Sunday race is extended by 30km and will reverse the top eight finishers from race one on its grid.

The points will be the same for both races.

This works in GP2 - but F3 cars are not as easy to overtake in.

I think I'm probably against this idea for F3.

dasc04 · 8 Sep 2005, 18:20 (Ref:1402165)

Why do you think are F3 cars harder to overtake in?

Where is the evidence of that?

Ever driven either?

Kidzer · 8 Sep 2005, 18:29 (Ref:1402175)

Evidence would be the amount of action in the respective championships, GP2 has more overtaking, period.

dasc04 · 8 Sep 2005, 18:39 (Ref:1402192)

maybe that is not to do with the cars though?

Range of driving talent across the grid?

It would probably make it a lot more interesting to watch in the new format with the faster drivers overtaking.

I was watching an f3 Euroseries race last night from Hockenheim from this year and was amazed to see that LH's qual lap was a second quicker than his team mate who was 2nd. Something like 5 seconds covered the field.

I don't think the lack of overtaking is due to "f3 cars being harder to overtake in".

**bella** · 8 Sep 2005, 18:39 (Ref:1402194)

erm, you've not watched a full f3 race recently have you? there's loads if you know where to look. same in british f3, f3euroseries, wherever.

that was aimed at kidzer

Kicking-back · 8 Sep 2005, 18:42 (Ref:1402201)

Someone agrees:

Quote:

Originally Posted by from autosport.com

Signature's Philippe Sinault said: "For F3 this is not a good idea. It can be good for the show as you can see in GP2, but it is much harder to overtake in F3. Also it's a problem with the reverse grid race on the long race on Sunday, when we have the maximum audience with the DTM."

**bella** · 8 Sep 2005, 18:47 (Ref:1402208)

the thing with gp2 is there seems to be an issue (that i've bleated about before) where drivers cannot overtake without the other making a mistake (slight exaggeration admitted for the purposes of this arguement). i'd rather see 1 move like hamilton's around the outside of sutil in race 2 at spa than 10 moves by the gp2 lot.

Kicking-back · 8 Sep 2005, 18:56 (Ref:1402216)

I agree that overtaking moves in a formula where its harder to do are usually "better" to see.

I enjoy both F3 and GP2.

dasc04 · 8 Sep 2005, 18:59 (Ref:1402217)

But the fact that F3 cars do overtake surely implies that they are not like F1 cars in the fact that you never see any overtaking. The aero wake behind an F1 car is massive compared to an F3 car.

Aerodynamically and mechanically an F3 can overtake! Its the majority of sub-gp2-standard drivers who can't.

jondownunder · 9 Sep 2005, 12:16 (Ref:1402803)

Oh no, another championship's credibility as a "sport" ruined by a stupid rule. And it's not even as though they'll have fewer points for race 2 like GP2, which makes their reverse grid format more acceptable. Why don't they just introduce success ballast and be done with it?

runshaw · 9 Sep 2005, 12:26 (Ref:1402815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jondownunder

Oh no, another championship's credibility as a "sport" ruined by a stupid rule. And it's not even as though they'll have fewer points for race 2 like GP2, which makes their reverse grid format more acceptable. Why don't they just introduce success ballast and be done with it?

How do you know that the rule will ruin F3's credibiltiy? Although I think the format should remain the same anyway.

strider · 9 Sep 2005, 12:53 (Ref:1402852)

Stuff like reverse grids and success ballast are okay for touring cars, but not single-seaters. They just about get away with it in GP2, but it's still very unpopular with the teams - "Hey, well done mate, great drive, you've just won the race comfortably! But, er, now you'll be starting 8th on the grid tomorrow..."

**bella** · 9 Sep 2005, 14:02 (Ref:1402925)

it's not like they're the main reason people go to dtm anyway (*innocent cough*). if it was say in the position bf3 was in, you could understand a bit of flailing in the rules department to try and get people to watch. but as it is a good strong portion of the dtm crowd do sit and watch the f3 races, so i don't see the need to adjust.

strider · 9 Sep 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1402990)

Surely the reason it's been done has nothing to do with getting people there to watch F3, but rather to overcome the problem of the ASM monopoly? Even so, the likes of Philippe Sinault (Signature) and John Booth (Manor), who stand to gain from the move, still don't like it. The first aim of any commercially-run series has to be to get a decent grid and that's what the Euroseries people are worried about.

Kidzer · 9 Sep 2005, 15:34 (Ref:1403020)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

erm, you've not watched a full f3 race recently have you? there's loads if you know where to look. same in british f3, f3euroseries, wherever.

that was aimed at kidzer

I have watched an F3 race recently

, but not at ciruits - only on TV (which really, only shows the 'best' bits), it could well be the directors fault I don't see as much overtaking though - I don't know really, both series' are good to watch no doubt, but I prefer GP2, perhaps you do need a mistake for a totally clean pass - but the armchair fans like it.

jondownunder · 9 Sep 2005, 15:37 (Ref:1403022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by runshaw

How do you know that the rule will ruin F3's credibiltiy? Although I think the format should remain the same anyway.

Well, maybe it will only spoil its credibility in the eyes of a purist. Personally I think there's a dangerous line between sport and entertainment, and things like reverse grids take away from the purity of motor racing as "sport". Sure, they may improve the spectacle in terms of entertainment, but I for one would rather see drivers (and teams) awarded fairly for both qualifying and race performance. I don't see why a driver should have a mediocre race and finish 8th (say, at Pau for example) then be gifted the chance to cruise to a full-points win in the following race. I'd rather drivers were awarded for their talent and consistency than have any old Tom, Dick or Harry racking up big points finishes each weekend.

**bella** · 9 Sep 2005, 15:49 (Ref:1403032)

kidzer:

from what i can see, the *majority* of the decent racing seems to be missed out on the highlights programmes. one particular meeting was donington last year when we had the evening races, absolutely ace racing, but they just didn't show any overtaking.

suggest you watch one at the track and *then* comment. i'd suggest watching a f3 race live on tv, but...

at the track for the euroseries, the spectators are spoilt. you get fantastic tv coverage on the big screens, *and* the track in front of you. it really is a fantastic event to go to. ok, so if you're like me and your german is patchy to say the least you do lose out because of the lack of english commentary, but hey. i'd rather trade that for a big tv.

Kidzer · 9 Sep 2005, 15:52 (Ref:1403036)

Perhaps I should refrain from judgement, but its hard for me to get to races because of my location and the time of year the Knockhill round is at (Around or near exame time, mucho revision to do

)

Now...live F3...theres an idea

Would be cool if MotorsTV got that on soon

strider · 9 Sep 2005, 16:00 (Ref:1403046)

It's slightly off topic, but if you fancy watch watching BF3 from the Nurburgring last weekend, then 7.30am tomorrow morning on Channel 4...

Followed by loads of repeats on Motors for those with uber-TVs. That's a better programme, because it's twice as long. Don't know if they got any footage of the F3 drivers thrashing their rent-a-wrecks around the Nordschleife, but that would be entertaining.

**bella** · 9 Sep 2005, 16:11 (Ref:1403058)

if motors had live f3, that would absolutely finish off any chances of getting any spectators to the track at all. totally against that. people should get off their bums and go and watch it at the track. (ok, make it cheaper to get in first... but if you didn't pay for sky, you could all afford it...)

7.30am? on a saturday? no need! besides, we saw the whole race from our magnificent vantage point

strider · 9 Sep 2005, 16:17 (Ref:1403064)

So did I from mine, but then I wasn't getting a tan at the same time...

Alfa Fan · 9 Sep 2005, 16:23 (Ref:1403071)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

if motors had live f3, that would absolutely finish off any chances of getting any spectators to the track at all. totally against that.

Its not hurt the BTCC.

**bella** · 9 Sep 2005, 19:13 (Ref:1403189)

i think it has. the crowd sizes are rubbish.

Chucky · 10 Sep 2005, 02:33 (Ref:1403387)

How big a crowd do you get at a BF3 race?

As for the Euro's, resorting to s reverse grid is equivalent to admitting you have a problem with the level of competition. If you have to artificially manipulate grids to give drivers "a fair go" then you have a fundamentally flawed championship. Period.

Frank_White · 10 Sep 2005, 09:58 (Ref:1403595)

Actually, I think that the reverse grid regulation change for the Euro-series is great news for British F3. Drivers who consider themselves the best (all the good ones do) will gravitate to the pure series. Therefore the better drivers (i.e the stars) will not go to the Euro-series and as a consequence its gonna suffer even more. Its a silly idea. If BF3 had changed at the same time it would have been workable.

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