[WEC] WEC 2019/20 season

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Yes I agree. My comment should have quoted Chernaudi but it’s too fiddly to do so typing on a phone on a train!

GT3 customer racing makes money for manufacturers, that’s why they all do it. Sensible heads at FIA/ACO, rather than creating an entire new ruleset, could say, “hey OEMs, fancy racing those cars that exist anyway, with drivers you employ anyway, in a World Championship?”. Problem solved.

Problem is that GTE the way it is now is because the ACO and the SRO got into a bleeping contest over who had the fastest production based GT cars in the world currently (I don't consider Super GT as such with GT500 since they moved away from using production car unitbodies after 2008). The SRO allowed stuff like big volume diffusers and some fairly radical changes to the cars to speed them up after 2011. The ACO felt the need to one up the SRO because they don't feel the need to have GT3 cars run at LM as part of the LM24 currently.

There's differences between the GTE/GTLM and GT3 tech regs, mostly regarding aero and how much engine position can be fiddled with. But the rules are close enough that the Ferrari 488 and the current Aston Martin Vantage can be converted back and forth.

Of course, we also have the situation with Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and BMW, and probably others, who see GT3 as a profit center. They don't run GTE (Porsche excepted) because they probably don't see the opportunity to sell customer cars. And there's the issue with BMW wanting to run different models in GTE and GT3 if they were still running in GTE. Porsche and Ferrari sell customer cars, but not so much in Pro, but more in Am.

Personally, if the ACO encouraged privateer teams (same issue as in LMP1), we might see at least a bigger field.

We do already also have Manthey running in GTE (as co-owner and manager of the Porsche GTE Pro factory team) and VLN, but that's also the exception rather than the rule. Only other team that I can think of that does both GTE and a GT3 based formula is AF Corse. AMR does loan factory drivers to GT3 teams in BES and British GT, but doesn't run teams in those series.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Not even Porsche have a true privateer team in Pro right now.

Why would they? Privateers race in Am and always will as long as there are factory teams in Pro and they aren't factory backed themselves. Spa gets a bajillion Pro cars because they're running for overall victory and the factories have limited avenues to spend besides throwing free cars and drivers at teams. There's still 17 GTE cars on a 30 car grid, and there was 30 out of 60 with multiple reserves at Le Mans. Even Daytona only had 22 GT3s out of 47 cars and that's the biggest GT3 race where they aren't the main class.

How can you look at a category that makes up literally half the field at Le Mans and act like it's some sort of horrible mistake?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

How can you look at a category that makes up literally half the field at Le Mans and act like it's some sort of horrible mistake?

Three makes in the World Championship. Three. At a time when GT racing is booming worldwide. That's pathetic. Even 5 was unimpressive but at least the Ford was something special.

There are 8 makes in IGTC. 11 At Spa. The GT3 class is one one of the most sustained successes in the history of motorsport. GTE is ...less so.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Three makes in the World Championship. Three. At a time when GT racing is booming worldwide. That's pathetic. Even 5 was unimpressive but at least the Ford was something special.

There are 8 makes in IGTC. 11 At Spa. The GT3 class is one one of the most sustained successes in the history of motorsport. GTE is ...less so.

I think GT3 wouldn't survive in the current ACO style racing because of the waiver mobiles that they (or some of them) are. This is probably the biggest reason why BMW dropped out. The ACO probably didn't cave in to their demands of giving their car a super low waist line and roof so their car is 'compromised' in GTE form, according to them. IMSA looks to be more lenient on the BOP and their season isn't over but I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop out there too. Ford had a set # of seasons for the GT, which is why it's gone.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think GT3 wouldn't survive in the current ACO style racing because of the waiver mobiles that they (or some of them) are. This is probably the biggest reason why BMW dropped out. The ACO probably didn't cave in to their demands of giving their car a super low waist line and roof so their car is 'compromised' in GTE form, according to them. IMSA looks to be more lenient on the BOP and their season isn't over but I wouldn't be surprised to see it drop out there too. Ford had a set # of seasons for the GT, which is why it's gone.

I think you'll see the M8 last longer here in IMSA. They can lobby and see better performance, this season in IMSA they're much closer to the front than they ever were in WEC. And the size of the market in the US vs the cost required makes it sellable to BMW NA vs trying to sell it to BMW worldwide.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Three makes in the World Championship. Three. At a time when GT racing is booming worldwide. That's pathetic. Even 5 was unimpressive but at least the Ford was something special.

There are 8 makes in IGTC. 11 At Spa. The GT3 class is one one of the most sustained successes in the history of motorsport. GTE is ...less so.

How many teams are there running the entire IGTC? Oneish? Maybe two? I don't think I'd parade that out with the kind of entry there was for Laguna Seca and I wouldn't expect a screaming field at Kyalami either. I would certainly hope a 70 car enduro would have more manufacturers than a capped entry of 17-18 cars. I would expect as much when you're dealing with a class with at least a vague idea of real regulations and a history (if not present) of actual technical competition requiring an actual competitive standard to be able to sell cars compared to one where you can take a luxury sedan and parts bin hackjob it into a winning race car.

I can't see how GTE doesn't qualify as a sustained success when it's been around long enough for like 9 different models of 911 dating back to air cooling. Historically it's usually been a class with 2-3 widely involved manufacturers and been just great that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL2HF-sFLnc
Remember this race? 5 Ferraris, 9 Porsches, 3 Panoz (none of which were classified as finishers) and an entirely irrelevant one off Spyker. I don't remember thinking it was crap.

I honestly won't even miss Ford and BMW. Ford had a car that was completely against the spirit of the class, constantly played dirty, and made it clear from the start they had no intention of a long term program with any discussion of the car being around next year only as a stop gap to something else. BMW similarly refuses to enter something appropriate and was hardly competitive anyways. God forbid the GT class be contested between GT cars this season.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

How many teams are there running the entire IGTC? Oneish? Maybe two? I don't think I'd parade that out with the kind of entry there was for Laguna Seca and I wouldn't expect a screaming field at Kyalami either. I would certainly hope a 70 car enduro would have more manufacturers than a capped entry of 17-18 cars. I would expect as much when you're dealing with a class with at least a vague idea of real regulations and a history (if not present) of actual technical competition requiring an actual competitive standard to be able to sell cars compared to one where you can take a luxury sedan and parts bin hackjob it into a winning race car.

I can't see how GTE doesn't qualify as a sustained success when it's been around long enough for like 9 different models of 911 dating back to air cooling. Historically it's usually been a class with 2-3 widely involved manufacturers and been just great that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL2HF-sFLnc
Remember this race? 5 Ferraris, 9 Porsches, 3 Panoz (none of which were classified as finishers) and an entirely irrelevant one off Spyker. I don't remember thinking it was crap.

I honestly won't even miss Ford and BMW. Ford had a car that was completely against the spirit of the class, constantly played dirty, and made it clear from the start they had no intention of a long term program with any discussion of the car being around next year only as a stop gap to something else. BMW similarly refuses to enter something appropriate and was hardly competitive anyways. God forbid the GT class be contested between GT cars this season.

I do miss those old Spykers, just something about that car like the old Morgans. Weren't ever going to see them at the front but just the fact they were there was fun. And you rarely heard about them blocking or hitting other cars and destroying the racing, frankly they were often invisible. And the reading was often was similar to 675s in that it may not have been the outright fastest car but the best team to get their car through 24 hours that came out on top. But we've gotten so "professional" and corporate mandated durability, it's just watching them turn laps until the last couple stints and see how the drivers can milk every bit of fuel or tire life. Not too put down any of the older teams who were professional I just couldn't come up with a better phrase, it was a bit more garagista even in to the early 2000s in many classes.

I've been torn about the Ford since early on. Never liked the looks, thought it was an homage to the GT40 if you were drunk and lost your glasses. Even if you pretended modern interpretation. I HATED the engine note off throttle, just sounds broken but all the turbo guys sound like lately so. And the lack of care about having any cars out first, they didn't even try with the excuses just went straight to the we asked and everyone agreed to let us run early. I know the car "price" isn't much more than others in class, GT3s and 488s aren't cheap but Ford has to be losing tons per car sold. And the new RSR isn't much different in build idea but it's at least close to a car, the GT looks like a Lego toy a kid built from parts. And the racing shows its build logic, top speed with minimal drag so a LM special to build more "legacy" but it felt hollow. Every car if you pick at it has changes from the street and allowances, and GT3 is equally rife with modifications, but it felt like the GT was built to exploit gaps at any cost rather than a car and then we'll make the racer. It sounds like the perfect idea and yet somehow it ends up feeling dirty in execution

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Unlike many, I do actually like LMP2. Other than the chassis issue, it's good - good quality teams, good quality drivers, good quality racing.

But can't you say pretty much the same about any higher level spec class racing, NASCAR included?

It's a horrid prospect for me to think about, that in 12 months time this class will be the most interesting sportscar class left.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

But can't you say pretty much the same about any higher level spec class racing, NASCAR included?

It's a horrid prospect for me to think about, that in 12 months time this class will be the most interesting sportscar class left.

I can't speak for NASCAR. You maybe can for a few higher level spec classes, but not them all.

ELMS - Very High Quality Teams
IMSA - Very High Quality DPi teams. Poor quality LMP2 (previous LMP2 was good). Extremely high GTLM, average-high GTD.
Le Mans Cup - LMP3 decent, GT below average
Blancpain Endurance - Very High
Blancpain GT Europe - Average
Blancpain GT USA - Average to low
Blancpain GT Asia - Low (Trending downwards)
ADAC GT Masters - Very High

[Deleted]

I think if you look at ALMS LMPC at the start decade, one can argue that the quality (teams wise, perhaps not drivers) and quantity were there too. ESM, CORE, Pickett, Dyson, PR1, PTM, Genoa, Intersport, Dempsey etc. But it was still a spec series and rejected by everyone. Nowadays you have more spec and trend has gone towards LMPC everywhere - well in the cases where it isn't a straight bop class that is.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I can't speak for NASCAR. You maybe can for a few higher level spec classes, but not them all.

ELMS - Very High Quality Teams
IMSA - Very High Quality DPi teams. Poor quality LMP2 (previous LMP2 was good). Extremely high GTLM, average-high GTD.
Le Mans Cup - LMP3 decent, GT below average
Blancpain Endurance - Very High
Blancpain GT Europe - Average
Blancpain GT USA - Average to low
Blancpain GT Asia - Low (Trending downwards)
ADAC GT Masters - Very High

You must be joking for sure when you say ELMS has "Very High Quality Teams" and Blancpain GT Europe has "Average".

[TF110]

I think the teams in ELMS are mostly average to good in lmp2. You get the usual winners, but that happens in almost every series where the cars are spec or performance is set in terms of equivalence.

Anyway, onto the prologue, Toyota is running at 918kg now, 14kg more than at Spa. The non-hybrids are unchanged. Porsche's new car is going to run 15kg heavier than it's last model as well as a smaller air restrictor. IMSA should take note for GTLM

[chernaudi]

Actually, the Porsche weighs 12 kg lighter than the old car did at LM (1254kg vs 1266 kg). However, that should be heavier than in the non-LM rounds.

This would be easier to figure out if the ACO used the same auto-BOP for LM as they do for the other WEC events.

It also has to be remembered that the 911 RSR underwent an extreme evolution, while the Ferrari and Aston Martin are basically the same as they were at LM and Spa. It's still a bit lighter than the Aston and quite a bit lighter than the Ferrari.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Actually, the Porsche weighs 12 kg lighter than the old car did at LM (1254kg vs 1266 kg). However, that should be heavier than in the non-LM rounds.

This would be easier to figure out if the ACO used the same auto-BOP for LM as they do for the other WEC events.

It also has to be remembered that the 911 RSR underwent an extreme evolution, while the Ferrari and Aston Martin are basically the same as they were at LM and Spa. It's still a bit lighter than the Aston and quite a bit lighter than the Ferrari.

That's what the article is saying... these are the wec non-lm race bop figures. I can't find the fia table on their site.

[S griffin]

Not sure how much a weight penalty will help the others, the Toyotas are a class apart from the rest. If there were other manufacturers of course there probably wouldn't be a need for it

[TF110]

Parity between the manufacturers shouldn't mean that the private teams get left behind. It's obvious that the Toyota is one of the best lmp1s ever built so there's gotta be something you can do to help the others. But when do you go too far? I don't know if they are going to run the new tires on the private teams but that could definitely help out.

[Akrapovic]

If you're BoPing then it doesn't matter how good the car is. It should be equalised. You can't go too far with a BoP, because that's the goal - balance.

Is this a BoP? Or is this EoT? Well tbh, it's not really EoT either. It's too restrictive for that. It's a sort of mishmash half-way mess than nobody except a Toyota board member is happy with.

It is what it is. We've got this mess, but at least there's an end on sight with new regulations.

[TF110]

It's eot. That's what they call it, so that's what it is . Turbo, turbo-hybrid and NA get different fuel flows and weights etc. We'll see how it plays out.

[Akrapovic]

Calling something a name doesn't mean it's that. It's not EoT as it isn't equivalent. It's fundamentally different to the EoT as they build in an advantage for the privateers, but then limit them on fuel via regulations. It's not equivalent as it doesn't balance technology (sometimes it actually unbalances it), and it isn't BoP as it doesn't balance individual cars. It's a weird halfway mash of things.

But that's why the "how far do we go?" question is un-answerable for WEC. For EoT, this is too far as we're trying to give the privateer teams a leg up. But for EoT, the fuel stint limit is a violation of what they're trying to achieve too. And for BoP it doesn't go far enough, because nothing is balanced.

However, it's understandable why we've got what we've got. There's no good solution to the situation they're in. The next set of regulations has to decide what it is and then stick to it.

[MaskedRacer]

EoT for Le Mans is different from the rest of the WEC. That is what matters to Toyota. I don't think they care otherwise. Maybe Rebellion sneaks a win or two. I doubt they will cry over losing Silverstone or Bahrain or something like that.

They will race with an arm behind their back at every race this year with no complaints as long as Le Mans is the exception.

[Deleted]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...caps-outlined/

The Toyotas and the non-hybrids will also be governed by fuel tank capacity adjustments. This has been done to “ensure an equal number of laps per stint” at all rounds including the season-ending 24 Hours of Le Mans.

So I guess that's done finally

But success ballast still applies for non-LM only

[gert]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...-outlined.html

This news means that the two privateer teams in the class, Rebellion Racing and Team LNT should be closer than ever to the TS050 HYBRIDs (which have been updated over the off-season) during the upcoming season.

Closer than ever ... is probably perfect for Toyota. "They may get as close as they can, as long as we still win"

Closer than ever ... is just not good enough for me.

[carbsmith]

Starting the season in the post Le Mans dead spot when everybody starts cutting back their programs is probably not great for entries, especially with the locked in approach the travel system requires. I mean we've seen lots of years where ByKolles stops showing up or Rebellion drops to one car at this time of year but it comes across much differently.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Calling something a name doesn't mean it's that. It's not EoT as it isn't equivalent. It's fundamentally different to the EoT as they build in an advantage for the privateers, but then limit them on fuel via regulations. It's not equivalent as it doesn't balance technology (sometimes it actually unbalances it), and it isn't BoP as it doesn't balance individual cars. It's a weird halfway mash of things.

But that's why the "how far do we go?" question is un-answerable for WEC. For EoT, this is too far as we're trying to give the privateer teams a leg up. But for EoT, the fuel stint limit is a violation of what they're trying to achieve too. And for BoP it doesn't go far enough, because nothing is balanced.

However, it's understandable why we've got what we've got. There's no good solution to the situation they're in. The next set of regulations has to decide what it is and then stick to it.

You can't equalize technology by equalizing the cars. Bop is not Eot. T for Technology is not a literal phrase, but your comment sounds like that's how you believe it is or should be? Technology sounds like a broader term for the TYPE of car in lmp1. Like my previous comment, hybrid turbo, non-hybrid turbo, non-hybrid NA... You can't seriously say to Toyota to make a non-hybrid car and invest in that when the regs are changing next year. Imo that's the only guarantee that there's absolute parity in terms of the rules of car building. In the meantime we have this 'EOT'. At least we have parity in terms of equal stints, this time even Le Mans.

[Adam43]

I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with Akrapovic! Who describes the situation well to my mind.