Have overtaking initiatives improved F1 ?

[wnut]

Below is an analysis of the overtaking in F1 races in 2011.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23758.html

For me the overtaking initiatives have vastly improved F1, what are your feelings, insights?

[Dead-Eye]

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the total number of overtakes in 2010.

Personally, it didn't improve anything for me. I simply don't care about any overtaking "improvements" that are created by contrivedly giving an advantage to the car that's behind just because it is the car behind. That means it was not only no improvement for me, it was a major contributing factor to 2011 being the season in which I watched the least amount of races since I started following the sport in 1994.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the total number of overtakes in 2010.

Personally, it didn't improve anything for me. I simply don't care about any overtaking "improvements" that are created by contrivedly giving an advantage to the car that's behind just because it is the car behind. That means it was not only no improvement for me, it was a major contributing factor to 2011 being the season in which I watched the least amount of races since I started following the sport in 1994.

I hear that. The gimmicks more annoy me than anything else. I'd rather have no overtake than overtake by pressing a button.

[Razzzor]

I liked the easier overtaking. F1 has, for a very long time, been far too difficult to pass and we'd just get follow the leader bulls--t. DRS and Kers are great - definitely better than Indycar's push to pass.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the total number of overtakes in 2010.

Personally, it didn't improve anything for me. I simply don't care about any overtaking "improvements" that are created by contrivedly giving an advantage to the car that's behind just because it is the car behind. That means it was not only no improvement for me, it was a major contributing factor to 2011 being the season in which I watched the least amount of races since I started following the sport in 1994.

Broadly agree. There's more action, yes, but the racing is trivialised and less satisfying. It's F1 geared to the mass-market.

[steve_r]

Back in the mid to late 90s though to the early 2000s, it seemed like the only the only overtaking happened in the pits.

I'm generalising of course, but the 2008 season to now have been packed with great races, and in my mind the whole show has improved a great deal.

I dont really get why people call it "Trivial". What is so great about a car being 3 seconds a lap faster than the one in front, but stuck behind it for an entire GP because it is impossible to get within passing range due to the dirty air?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Back in the mid to late 90s though to the early 2000s, it seemed like the only the only overtaking happened in the pits.

I'm generalising of course, but the 2008 season to now have been packed with great races, and in my mind the whole show has improved a great deal.

I dont really get why people call it "Trivial". What is so great about a car being 3 seconds a lap faster than the one in front, but stuck behind it for an entire GP because it is impossible to get within passing range due to the dirty air?

These last-minute solutions is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. The rules should have been geared towards less downforce fifteen years ago, but it is clear the members of the OWG do not feel that is in their best interest. This is not complicated - there are several examples of single seaters that produces good racing. The waters are just too murky for such measures to be implemented.

[Bononi]

It certainly had more overtakings and more "attrition" between drivers. I can't say it was an improvement, but it's better than the procession we witnessed for years and years. But I don't remember the last season that was plain boring, all of them have been very exciting as a whole.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

These last-minute solutions is approaching the problem from the wrong direction. The rules should have been geared towards less downforce fifteen years ago, but it is clear the members of the OWG do not feel that is in their best interest. This is not complicated - there are several examples of single seaters that produces good racing. The waters are just too murky for such measures to be implemented.

Less down force equals slower lap times, and slower lap times equals some fans being up in arms about F1 cars being barely faster than other open wheel cars.

And before someone says: 'Give them more powerful engines', remember that 1500 bhp turbo engined cars were still much slower than current F1 cars. Lap time comes mainly from aero.

Personally, I couldn't give a flying duck if F1 cars just happened to be slower than other open wheel cars, but for some fans it would be almost tantamount to murder. They believe that, above all else, an F1 car should be faster than any other open wheeled car around a typical F1 circuit.

In the meantime, F1 cars can be faster than other open wheel cars and still provide some means of overtaking due to devices such as DRS.

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Back in the mid to late 90s though to the early 2000s, it seemed like the only the only overtaking happened in the pits.

I'm generalising of course, but the 2008 season to now have been packed with great races, and in my mind the whole show has improved a great deal.

I dont really get why people call it "Trivial". What is so great about a car being 3 seconds a lap faster than the one in front, but stuck behind it for an entire GP because it is impossible to get within passing range due to the dirty air?

make that 2007 as well! 2007 is the best season without a doubt in the watchable f1 era of the last 5 years.

[nickyf1]

What's this obsession with overtaking anyway? F1 never was an energy drink injected five overtakes every minute show. Every now and then we had those classic battles, but I challenge anyone to recall any other races where overtaking kept on happening?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

What's this obsession with overtaking anyway?

I don't think that it's so much an obsession as a means to stop the once usual: 'After the last pit stop I quickly caught up with the lead car, but was then unable to get by him' type remarks. Remarks that put the blame squarely on the cars inability to pass another car, rather than the drivers ability to get by.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Bononi

It certainly had more overtakings and more "attrition" between drivers. I can't say it was an improvement, but it's better than the procession we witnessed for years and years. But I don't remember the last season that was plain boring, all of them have been very exciting as a whole.

As far as the racing goes, i'd argue 2010.

I think there's two very different opinions as to what a 'good season' is. A good season for me is a mix between championship battles (driver championship), AND good on-track racing. One without the other always leaves a little to be desired.

This year was the first time in some time we didn't have the championship battle, but on the whole (i'm talking from 1st through to 24th) we've had much better on-track action.

The DRS needs to be levelled out, and I think they'd have learn alot from this year. I think we'll see much better balance next year.

But yeh, I don't think we'll see a change in front-runners, namely one Sebastien Vettel.

Selby

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I dont really get why people call it "Trivial". What is so great about a car being 3 seconds a lap faster than the one in front, but stuck behind it for an entire GP because it is impossible to get within passing range due to the dirty air?

I don't say it was trivial as such. Moves from Webber at Spa and some of the scrambles the Mclarens have been in are top drawer by the measure of any era.

But it is being trivialised. I want to see a driver apply muscle, skill and timing. The outward manifestation of passing isn't enough for me, I want to see a position earned to be satisfied that this sport is the toughest. I wouldn't go as far as to say passing by pressing the button makes it meaningless - there's still skill there - but it does cheapen it.

I couldn't give a damn about it being slower than some other series myself. I've been aware CART had been faster for many, many years. Just tell the commentators not to bring it up.

[nickyf1]

I wouldn't mind DRS if it's use was unlimited, with possible automation to aid slipstreaming.

But then, why not just have flexible wings?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

But then, why not just have flexible wings?

How flexible could a flexible wing be?

Should having the ability to make the most flexible wing possible be 'the' performance differentiator in F1 cars?

The best way to aid overtaking is to make having a 'draggy' car a liability, which is exactly what the 2014 regulations are all about.

The current regulations allow the cars to carry enough fuel to compensate for the drag that they create and also enough fuel to create down force by means of chucking fuel into the engine when the drivers foot is off the throttle.

The 2014 regulations set a limit for the amount of fuel to be carried, so you have no excess fuel to compensate for drag, etc.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

For me the overtaking initiatives have vastly improved F1, what are your feelings, insights?

For me it's just not the answer, but I will continue to watch and jump up and down because I love it..

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

I wouldn't mind DRS if it's use was unlimited, with possible automation to aid slipstreaming.

But then, why not just have flexible wings?

I've said this for a while. I'd love to see DRS enabled when you're within 1 second of a car infront. Be interested to see how that went!

Selby

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

...

I couldn't give a damn about it being slower than some other series myself. I've been aware CART had been faster for many, many years. Just tell the commentators not to bring it up.

Those indycars might be faster, but F1 cars are of course way quicker. I believe that F1 cars should be the quickest cars around a racetrack.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Wims

I believe that F1 cars should be the quickest cars around a racetrack.

And for that, you have to pay a price.

[nickyf1]

Back in the 90's, CART was just as quick as F1. The cars were heavier, but they had ground effects and turbo's putting out the sorts of horsepower on the scary side of 1000!

Pre-Tyre War, a car from CART could have outpaced an F1 car around tracks like Hockenheim or Monza, no problem!

[Wims]

Those tracks are not really F1 tracks tho. They are straights with chicanes.

[Peralta]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the total number of overtakes in 2010.

Personally, it didn't improve anything for me. I simply don't care about any overtaking "improvements" that are created by contrivedly giving an advantage to the car that's behind just because it is the car behind. That means it was not only no improvement for me, it was a major contributing factor to 2011 being the season in which I watched the least amount of races since I started following the sport in 1994.

Totally agree. Driver skills (balls) passing in F1 is non existent. Why take chances when you can pass in the DRS zone

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by wnut

Below is an analysis of the overtaking in F1 races in 2011.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23758.html

For me the overtaking initiatives have vastly improved F1, what are your feelings, insights?

No. Overtaking wasn't prominent in the mid 80's, but I'd watch a parade of turbo beasts controlled by the driver before I'd watch today's F1.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Marbot

And for that, you have to pay a price.

But this should not be a problem for F1 and it's teams. It's a legitimate concern when you're talking about an IndyCar or a SuperLeague Formula or a Formula Nippon. But F1 is a trillion dollar business, with global visibility.