Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26 Jan 2018, 14:57 (Ref:3795272)   #26
Mike E
Veteran
 
Mike E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location:
Leeds
Posts: 4,342
Mike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike E will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Starting the races at 10 past the hour?

Where do I sign???
Mike E is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 16:33 (Ref:3795280)   #27
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleman View Post
F1 has an awfully high opinion of itself.

It's now become that classic old sales technique......"Sell the sizzle not the sausage!"

Strip away all the hype, the perceived glamour and the endless talking and the product itself is pretty rubbish.
I think its odd how F1 has the appeal it does. In the US, Nascar is much more popular overall than Indycar. It always struck me how there isn't the same fan appeal over our own European stock car (well saloon car) series. For example the World Touring Car series. Surely you have a series there which is tailor made for manufacturers to get behind and promote? Good racing, absolutely relate-able cars... but no. That series has effectively just folded, I don't get it.
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:03 (Ref:3795284)   #28
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I think its odd how F1 has the appeal it does. In the US, Nascar is much more popular overall than Indycar. It always struck me how there isn't the same fan appeal over our own European stock car (well saloon car) series. For example the World Touring Car series. Surely you have a series there which is tailor made for manufacturers to get behind and promote? Good racing, absolutely relate-able cars... but no. That series has effectively just folded, I don't get it.
Perhaps it is something to do with the fact that the UK is the nucleus of the F1 industry, with most of the teams and ancillary suppliers being based there.

Plus of course fan influence from the historical success of British drivers in World Championship terms, in both total years and individual winners.... winning 17 years with 10 drivers, 11 of those years being British drivers in British cars. (The next best being Germany with 12 titles and 3 drivers.)
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:07 (Ref:3795286)   #29
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,718
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
It's not as simple as a paywall is automatically bad. But I'd have to spend £50 a month to watch F1. That's the problem. I can spend £30 a year for WEC, or £600 a year on F1.

Paywall is fine. I'll pay for a product. But the price has to be reasonable. To get F1 in the UK, you need various packages and services. That becomes a lot.
for sure they way they bundle their channel line ups is a problem and agree the bigger issue (for me anyways) are the high price points that also come with the limitations typically associated with cable subscriptions.

but i guess if i am confused by anything, it is that they still seem to be having the same debate between FTA vs paywall.

after a year in, i was hoping to see them make a significant announcement towards offering more hybrid solutions.

offer some races for free globally via facebook or twitter (akin to what the NFL has done with twitter) or a deal with netflix or amazon (perhaps for live broadcasts but at least for full replays).

more choices on how and when to watch via multiple platforms/mediums and at every price point ranging from free to pay with all the bells and whistles.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:22 (Ref:3795289)   #30
AdrianM
Registered User
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
AdrianM should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Biggest issue for me (as others have said) is that you can't just pay for F1. I have zero interest in getting a Sky or Virgin subscription purely to watch F1 and MotorSport TV.

With the WEC I can subscribe to watch all the races in HD from multiple camera angles with no adverts for less than one months Sky or Virgin subscription.
AdrianM is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:46 (Ref:3795292)   #31
coppice
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 916
coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!
Some comments above sound like Dragons Den. TV has , with its vast advertising revenue , become the tail that is waving the F1 dog . Fewer fans ? Good - most of them have probably never seen motor racing live and I wouldn't mourn their loss. But smaller budgets you say ? Good , say I . When a front wing costs 100 grand something is very wrong with the sport....For reference it's worth noting that the inflation adjusted price of an off the shelf DFV from 1968 is only 30 grand more than the wing - and the DFV sounds a damn sight better than today's insanely complex engines. Sorry , 'power units '....
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 17:51 (Ref:3795294)   #32
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
Biggest issue for me (as others have said) is that you can't just pay for F1. I have zero interest in getting a Sky or Virgin subscription purely to watch F1 and MotorSport TV.

With the WEC I can subscribe to watch all the races in HD from multiple camera angles with no adverts for less than one months Sky or Virgin subscription.
Thats definately the way it seems to be heading. Traditional TV viewing for F1 will gradually evolve into paying for a live service. I'm of the belief thats what Liberty want.
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 18:15 (Ref:3795297)   #33
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
Traditional TV viewing for F1 will gradually evolve into paying for a live service. I'm of the belief thats what Liberty want.
I have no doubt. The US market may be PayTV friendly but it is alien to many of us in different markets.
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 19:15 (Ref:3795302)   #34
justracing
Veteran
 
justracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
United Kingdom
West Sussex
Posts: 2,444
justracing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjustracing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In essence, judging from the comments above including my own, it would rather seem to indicate that F1 as cache cow is way beyond its sell by date in which case will Liberty get their fingers burned?
justracing is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 20:01 (Ref:3795303)   #35
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
Playing devils advocate here, I do think F1 has become more mainstream, I never saw people wearing F1 team gear just out in the street 15-20 years ago. Whether that’s ultimately a good thing or not or even tells us anything I’m not sure. I guess we can thank Hamilton for some of that, like him or loath him he has raised the profile of the sport in many ways.
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 20:17 (Ref:3795305)   #36
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
It's not as simple as a paywall is automatically bad. But I'd have to spend £50 a month to watch F1. That's the problem. I can spend £30 a year for WEC, or £600 a year on F1.

Paywall is fine. I'll pay for a product. But the price has to be reasonable. To get F1 in the UK, you need various packages and services. That becomes a lot.
To be fair you can watch each race on Now TV for £6.99...
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 20:19 (Ref:3795306)   #37
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
Biggest issue for me (as others have said) is that you can't just pay for F1. I have zero interest in getting a Sky or Virgin subscription purely to watch F1 and MotorSport TV.
Yes you can.
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 20:30 (Ref:3795308)   #38
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
To be fair you can watch each race on Now TV for £6.99...
You have to drop qualifying and practice. So even that is still £140 a year, for no qualifying and practice sessions. So it's still much much more expensive than other series, for less content. So even the best case scenario is still pretty terrible.

Eurosport online pass is the same price for a month that F1 is for a day. And gets you all ES channels, plus more. Something isn't right there.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 20:36 (Ref:3795310)   #39
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,471
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
Playing devils advocate here, I do think F1 has become more mainstream, I never saw people wearing F1 team gear just out in the street 15-20 years ago. Whether that’s ultimately a good thing or not or even tells us anything I’m not sure. I guess we can thank Hamilton for some of that, like him or loath him he has raised the profile of the sport in many ways.
They've been wearing it since the 60s and 70's, what with the Malboro McLaren and Yardley McLaren anoraks, etc. plus there was the Denim aftershave gear as well. They are just the names that spring to mind immediately, but there were countless others. Although not a F1 team per se, but Ford also sold a clothing range aimed at motorsport enthusiasts, and I used to wear one of their anoraks - kindly donated, I might add.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3795311)   #40
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
You have to drop qualifying and practice. So even that is still £140 a year, for no qualifying and practice sessions. So it's still much much more expensive than other series, for less content. So even the best case scenario is still pretty terrible.

Eurosport online pass is the same price for a month that F1 is for a day. And gets you all ES channels, plus more. Something isn't right there.
But it’s not the £600 you claimed before. And if you pay £10.99 for each one you get every session of F1, F2 and GP3. These latter formulae were never available on terrestrial and are easily worth the money alone.

So you said £600 for F1 but actually it’s under half that with both the other series too.

But feel free to keep complaining and posting facts which are totally incorrect!
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:16 (Ref:3795314)   #41
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
But it isn't incorrect. It's...completely correct. If you're trying to get F1 through a TV package, that is around what it will cost you. The TV package is the preferred method for many, and for those in rural areas with poor internet, it'll be the only option. So I'm not sure what is "incorrect" about it.

You've given 2 more options. Only one of those is actually a true option - still costs £220 a year, about 4-5 times more expensive than any other series. The option you mentioned first, at £7 a month, is only valid if you chop 2 out of the 3 days off the weekend. You know, whilst we're discussing incorrect facts and what not? And why is it £7 for a day pass for F1, but £7 a month for a Eurosport pass? That's also not incorrect btw. It's true and stuff!

F1 is more expensive than any other motorsport. Viewing figures are dropping. It doesn't take a science degree to work out the connection here. This thread is about dropping viewing numbers, and I gave a reason why. So I'll continue "complaining" as it's the only way we'll actually be able to have a discussion on it. Or we can deny it all and pretend everything is ok, because you can pay 4 times the price of everything else, to get less. Even the best case scenario for F1 puts it miles below everything else. Kinda says it all really.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 26 Jan 2018 at 21:21.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:22 (Ref:3795316)   #42
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Ok. I live rural and stream Now TV and BT Sport with no problem at all. Better picture than Freeview.

I agree with your principle though and would rather see free to air but 98% of the population can pay under half what you claimed and see hundreds of hours of extra quality that was never bothered with by BBC or C4
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:28 (Ref:3795317)   #43
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Ok. I live rural and stream Now TV and BT Sport with no problem at all. Better picture than Freeview.
Good times. About a 5 mile away from me there's people who can't even stream YouTube. They won't be getting any decent picture, so they're back to £600 a year.

If the BEST argument we can come up with to support F1 is "Well it's not as bad as feared, because you can watch it for 4 times the price of any other series" then that's a bad state of affairs and exactly why this thread was created.

Here's another fun way of looking at it. The best case for F1 is spending £140 a year, and you won't get to see qualifying. But if you're "casual" enough to not care about qualifying, you won't be spending £140 a year. So that's an odd market target. Almost like F1 didn't really consider the target markets and went for short term gain.

I understand not every sport can be FTA. But if Eurosport want £7 a month and WEC want £30 a year, then I don't see why F1 is 3 digits. It doesn't have to be free, just has to be sensible.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:33 (Ref:3795318)   #44
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Ah, you’re in Scotland.
peebee2 is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2018, 21:39 (Ref:3795319)   #45
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Most of our internet is connected via tin cans with string. I am a lucky one in that I can sometimes stream HD, but sometimes it's terrible.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2018, 00:09 (Ref:3795338)   #46
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Australian broadband is called fraudband.

Liberty are giving anybody wanting to come up with an alternative series a massive free kick at the FTA market.

Simple cars, good racing ....

With some money and a bit of organization .....

Perhaps Indycar could step up to the plate.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2018, 00:33 (Ref:3795342)   #47
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Australian broadband is called fraudband.
Yep.... officially we have the 55th worst connection speed in the world. That is lower in the list than last year. Behind 3rd world countries and the likes of Ukraine and Azerbaijan!
With the promise that it will not improve at all for several years due to lack of uptake to NBN. (We need a minimum of 4 times the current subscribers to improve its efficiency.)
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2018, 08:59 (Ref:3795380)   #48
AdrianM
Registered User
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 277
AdrianM should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Australian broadband is called fraudband.

Liberty are giving anybody wanting to come up with an alternative series a massive free kick at the FTA market.

Simple cars, good racing ....

With some money and a bit of organization .....

Perhaps Indycar could step up to the plate.
It's not the cars or the racing that the majority of people are drawn by it's the drivers themselves. Swap the drivers in F1 and DTM around and see which series plummets in the ratings and which one rises.

For a series to compete they need prime time TV slots and super star names. There are already many series out there with far better racing and better looking cars but they are nowhere in terms of public perception.
AdrianM is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2018, 18:23 (Ref:3795464)   #49
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
if Eurosport want £7 a month and WEC want £30 a year, then I don't see why F1 is 3 digits. It doesn't have to be free, just has to be sensible.
Boxing matches like May-Pac and Money Fight cost over US$ 50. I wouldn't pay that much, but a lot of people do, at least in the United States.

Here in Uruguay, I get cable TV pay US$ 40 per month, or a tenth of minimum wage. And a lot of people pay for it.
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 27 Jan 2018, 18:25 (Ref:3795465)   #50
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
Starting the races at 10 past the hour?

Where do I sign???
I agree, but that could cause a problem with broadcasters who assign a strict 2 hour slot.
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Todt hints for an agreement: STR set for Ferrari power and RBR set for Renault power Pro Racer Formula One 10 3 Oct 2006 12:05
John B&Q out for further two months Craig Touring Car Racing 15 13 May 2002 20:02
Karthikeyan up for further F1 tests Francesca National & International Single Seaters 8 29 Jun 2001 13:57
Further Volvo BTCC rumours Sodemo2 Touring Car Racing 1 27 Mar 2001 17:26


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.