Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing > ACO Regulated Series

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23 Jun 2008, 09:52 (Ref:2235536)   #1
CTD
Veteran
 
CTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Denmark
Aarhus, Jylland, Denmark
Posts: 6,654
CTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

Hello.
Im getting pretty confused with these "new" EVO rules which was going to rule in 2010!
Are they thrown in the bin, are they "on hold", or are they going to count in 2010?.
I've tried to read about it here on Ten-Tenths but also on other forums, and im just confused, so if someone just could say whats counting i would be happy!
CTD is offline  
__________________
Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan)
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 11:21 (Ref:2235553)   #2
zac510
Veteran
 
zac510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
zac510 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The EVO rules are in a constant state of evolution
ie nobody knows yet!
zac510 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 11:45 (Ref:2235566)   #3
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
dont think the new rules are 'EVO' just new rules all together.

EVO meanin an evolution of the current LMP1 rules. The 2010 rule changes should be out in October this year.

a very general out line was released during the LM24 at the ACO press conference.
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 12:01 (Ref:2235589)   #4
Aysedasi
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
 
Aysedasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
England
Lymington, New Forest, England
Posts: 39,518
Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
dont think the new rules are 'EVO' just new rules all together.

EVO meanin an evolution of the current LMP1 rules. The 2010 rule changes should be out in October this year.

a very general out line was released during the LM24 at the ACO press conference.



See ACO Press Conference
Aysedasi is offline  
__________________
96 days...
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 16:05 (Ref:2235830)   #5
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Evo regs are a variation on current P1 regs for manufactuers who would prefare a look closer to a road car.

The aero hit a P1 Evo car would take over a regular P1, with no pretense to looking like a roadcar, will be compensated by restrictor/weight etc. breaks.
JAG is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 17:17 (Ref:2235887)   #6
sssssssss
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think Audi is the only manufacturer to prefer open top prototypes, although they don't have any roadcar looking anything close to that
sssssssss is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 17:22 (Ref:2235890)   #7
mattcat
Veteran
 
mattcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
United States
West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 612
mattcat should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by sssssssss
I think Audi is the only manufacturer to prefer open top prototypes, although they don't have any roadcar looking anything close to that
I believe that with it being fairly obvious recently that the closed top prototypes are significantly faster than the open tops, Audis preference may change very quickly...
mattcat is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 18:22 (Ref:2235949)   #8
joeb
Race Official
Veteran
 
joeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United States
Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 15,555
joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sssssssss
I think Audi is the only manufacturer to prefer open top prototypes, although they don't have any roadcar looking anything close to that
At one point (iirc) Mr. Clarke said Acura intended on building an open car for P1, but that may have changed. who knows not much more info has come out of HPD regarding next season's plans. Maybe by October when teams begin to tease us with possible futre plans we will know something
joeb is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Jun 2008, 19:10 (Ref:2235997)   #9
sssssssss
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcat
I believe that with it being fairly obvious recently that the closed top prototypes are significantly faster than the open tops, Audis preference may change very quickly...
I don't think closed tops are necessarily faster than open tops. It was just that Peugeot desperately wanted to win Le Mans this year and they did all they could. The R10 wasn't conceived for such huge steps from one year to the next in its development as Audi were used to the developing pace of the private opponents they mainly had so far (in 2000, BMW didn't further develop the LMR, Cadillac wasn't strong enough, Bentley was still Audi etc.). But I do think Audi could build from scratch an open top to run just as fast and well as the 908.
sssssssss is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 00:50 (Ref:2236245)   #10
deggis
Veteran
 
deggis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Finland
Posts: 6,202
deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!
All the essential info that came out from the press conference is here:

http://www.planetlemans.com/2008/06/...ss-conference/

http://www.endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=5797 (crappy Google translation)
deggis is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 08:17 (Ref:2236387)   #11
Pingguest
Veteran
 
Pingguest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Netherlands
Heemstede, The Netherlands
Posts: 3,190
Pingguest should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I read that the maximum temperature in the cockpit will be 32 degrees. Isn't it 25 at the moment? Why will ACO raise the temperature?
Pingguest is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 10:35 (Ref:2236444)   #12
Tom87
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
England
Posts: 322
Tom87 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcat
I believe that with it being fairly obvious recently that the closed top prototypes are significantly faster than the open tops, Audis preference may change very quickly...
Over one lap certainly, but over a race distance the distinction isn't as clear. The LM24 proved that running a closed Coupe, has it's own set of disadvantages to deal with.
Tom87 is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 11:09 (Ref:2236458)   #13
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Speculations of the new rules starting up again?
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 11:54 (Ref:2236480)   #14
CTD
Veteran
 
CTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Denmark
Aarhus, Jylland, Denmark
Posts: 6,654
CTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameCTD will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Is it realistic that the new rules will demand Gt looking cars for P1?, because i don't think the top Prototype class should be shut down!
CTD is offline  
__________________
Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan)
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2008, 13:08 (Ref:2236539)   #15
mattcat
Veteran
 
mattcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
United States
West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 612
mattcat should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by sssssssss
I don't think closed tops are necessarily faster than open tops. It was just that Peugeot desperately wanted to win Le Mans this year and they did all they could. The R10 wasn't conceived for such huge steps from one year to the next in its development as Audi were used to the developing pace of the private opponents they mainly had so far (in 2000, BMW didn't further develop the LMR, Cadillac wasn't strong enough, Bentley was still Audi etc.). But I do think Audi could build from scratch an open top to run just as fast and well as the 908.
It's not just Pugeot that I am referring to. The Charouz Lola Aston and the Dome S102 outpaced the open cars right out of the gate. I am no aerodynamicist, but I would be highly inclined to believe that there is a big advantage in downforce created by the windscreen and top of a closed top car. Likewise, I would be inclined to believe that the design is inherently better in a straight line. Anyone with an advanced knowledge of aerodynamics feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
mattcat is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 00:51 (Ref:2236920)   #16
MulsanneMike
Veteran
 
MulsanneMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
United States
Posts: 1,831
MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!MulsanneMike has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcat
It's not just Pugeot that I am referring to. The Charouz Lola Aston and the Dome S102 outpaced the open cars right out of the gate. I am no aerodynamicist, but I would be highly inclined to believe that there is a big advantage in downforce created by the windscreen and top of a closed top car. Likewise, I would be inclined to believe that the design is inherently better in a straight line. Anyone with an advanced knowledge of aerodynamics feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
MulsanneMike is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 06:58 (Ref:2236993)   #17
isynge
Veteran
 
isynge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
United Kingdom
London, UK
Posts: 2,975
isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!isynge is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattcat
It's not just Pugeot that I am referring to. The Charouz Lola Aston and the Dome S102 outpaced the open cars right out of the gate. I am no aerodynamicist, but I would be highly inclined to believe that there is a big advantage in downforce created by the windscreen and top of a closed top car. Likewise, I would be inclined to believe that the design is inherently better in a straight line. Anyone with an advanced knowledge of aerodynamics feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
John Horsman puts it quite nicely in layman's terms in Racing in the Rain - here he points out that drag is a factor of frontal area (larger in a coupe) multiplied by aerodynamic efficiency (greater in a coupe) - so a coupe body should be very effective on a long straight such as the run to Mulsanne, however the comparative downforce figures for the coupe and open top Mirage M6s showed the open car to be considerably more effective in being pushed onto the track. It's all on p.300 if you're interested.

Now I appreciate these are lessons from 30 years ago, and I'm sure things have moved on considerably (I'm much more a historian than aerodynamacist!) but I imagine some of these principles will remain the same.
isynge is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:11 (Ref:2237493)   #18
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTD
Is it realistic that the new rules will demand Gt looking cars for P1?, because i don't think the top Prototype class should be shut down!
P1 is remaining, there will just be a P1 Evo variation for 'GT' like cars.

Think Mercedes CLR, that's the best guess so far.
JAG is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:30 (Ref:2237500)   #19
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
P1 is remaining, there will just be a P1 Evo variation for 'GT' like cars.

Think Mercedes CLR, that's the best guess so far.
Are you sure? the ACO mentioned staying with the four class structure

LMP1
LMP2
GT1
GT2

any new "evo' p1 cars would be in the LMP1 class, not a seperate Evo class IIRC

"-- The possibility of choosing between prototype closed and open prototype is maintained, but (because there is a but), the COA would like to have a real diversity, "the cars look different and not just by their design" says Daniel Poissenot. As a result, in collaboration with Gordon Murray, a new definition body will even days in 2010, with a wider cockpit, knowing that cars today are still permitted. This regulation will be unveiled in November.

"The current cars and the new car will be balanced," said Daniel Poissenot, and it brings several questions: between diesel engines, Essence "traditional competition," Essence "GT" Hybrid and the different bodies, LMP1 current and future LMP2010 , How to get a good equivalence? The mission promises to be complicated for a settlement that presents itself as the map: failing to agree on a settlement, we try to please everyone with adjustments (engine or bodywork)."

Last edited by AU N EGL; 25 Jun 2008 at 19:34.
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 19:58 (Ref:2237523)   #20
mattcat
Veteran
 
mattcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
United States
West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 612
mattcat should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MulsanneMike
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isynge
John Horsman puts it quite nicely in layman's terms in Racing in the Rain - here he points out that drag is a factor of frontal area (larger in a coupe) multiplied by aerodynamic efficiency (greater in a coupe) - so a coupe body should be very effective on a long straight such as the run to Mulsanne, however the comparative downforce figures for the coupe and open top Mirage M6s showed the open car to be considerably more effective in being pushed onto the track. It's all on p.300 if you're interested.

Now I appreciate these are lessons from 30 years ago, and I'm sure things have moved on considerably (I'm much more a historian than aerodynamacist!) but I imagine some of these principles will remain the same.
Hmmm...interesting. Thanks for the input guys.
mattcat is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 20:10 (Ref:2237533)   #21
johntt
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
England
England
Posts: 1,244
johntt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Are you sure? the ACO mentioned staying with the four class structure

LMP1
LMP2
GT1
GT2

any new "evo' p1 cars would be in the LMP1 class, not a seperate Evo class IIRC

"-- The possibility of choosing between prototype closed and open prototype is maintained, but (because there is a but), the COA would like to have a real diversity, "the cars look different and not just by their design" says Daniel Poissenot. As a result, in collaboration with Gordon Murray, a new definition body will even days in 2010, with a wider cockpit, knowing that cars today are still permitted. This regulation will be unveiled in November.

"The current cars and the new car will be balanced," said Daniel Poissenot, and it brings several questions: between diesel engines, Essence "traditional competition," Essence "GT" Hybrid and the different bodies, LMP1 current and future LMP2010 , How to get a good equivalence? The mission promises to be complicated for a settlement that presents itself as the map: failing to agree on a settlement, we try to please everyone with adjustments (engine or bodywork)."
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do), having EVO (really think they should call it GTP) and P1 as seperate parallel classes, maintaining a 4 class system.
johntt is offline  
__________________
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high." -Ayrton Senna
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2237557)   #22
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by johntt
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do), having EVO (really think they should call it GTP) and P1 as seperate parallel classes, maintaining a 4 class system.
By reading the OUTline there would be four classes.

LMP1 ( evo folded into this class)
LMP2

GT1
GT2

with the GT clasess based on engine size and HP.

The EVO or LMP2010 rules cars will be racing with the current LMP1 cars, not in their own class.
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 21:44 (Ref:2237607)   #23
sssssssss
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MulsanneMike
The cockpit is actually a source of lift. The benefits of a closed top car are somewhat esoteric. Best guess is that closed top cars have less drag than an open top car. As for downforce, might be a bit of a wash as the cockpit potentially blocks flow to the rear wing. I'm told closed top LMPs have a slightly better L/D in low downforce configurations. I would guess in high downforce configs they are about equal.
Hi Mike!
That sounds just right... The current Spa track requires a rather high downforce setup, and that is where Audi was at the top along with Peugeot in qualifying (both Audi and Peugeot in the 1:58s), while at the very high speed-oriented Le Mans track Peugeot were 5 seconds faster than Audi in 2008.
And also looking back at the (approximately recent) history of Le Mans, it's quite obvious that neither closed or open tops necessarily had overall lap advantage because they were open or closed, but the coupes did reach higher top speeds (for example, Bentley in 2001 and 2002 as opposed to Audi or Toyota, Mercedes and Audi coupe vs. BMW and Audi R8R in '99) and the open tops had more corner speed. I guess the best example is that of the 1999 Audis, when the R8R went 8 seconds faster than the R8C over a qualifying lap, but, attention, while doing 335 km/h on the Mulsanne as opposed to 349 km/h () by the coupe!

Last edited by sssssssss; 25 Jun 2008 at 21:48.
sssssssss is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 21:46 (Ref:2237608)   #24
sssssssss
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by johntt
Theres a strong possibility that the ACO and FIA will decide on a single GT class (lets hope they do)
That might be a strong posibility especially if Audi decide to go to the GTs class at Le Mans with their R8 GT, because probably Audi wouldn't want to race in the smallest class (which the R8 would comply with at this time).
sssssssss is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jun 2008, 23:18 (Ref:2237658)   #25
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by sssssssss
That might be a strong posibility especially if Audi decide to go to the GTs class at Le Mans with their R8 GT, because probably Audi wouldn't want to race in the smallest class (which the R8 would comply with at this time).
Two rumours are being confused here.

There's a rumour of an R8 GT2 car, plus another rumour of an LMP1 Evo with R8 styling cues. I'd say it's 90% certain Audi will remain in LMP1, but they may see an opening to expand into GT2, who knows, longer term maybe with a diesel variation, it would seem the logical next step.

LMP1 Evo isn't a road car class, it's similar to LMP1 but, as far as we are aware, will have different dimensions for the bodywork, i.e wider cockpits. The theory goes this will allow manufactuers to produce full LMP1 prototypes, but with road car styling cues, which apparently appeals to Aston Martin and GM.

Other manufactuers may well stick with current LMP1 cars, who knows.

As for class structure, again who knows, right now I'd say:-

LMP1 (current and Evo cars)
LMP2
GT (single class based on GT2)

Last edited by JAG; 25 Jun 2008 at 23:25.
JAG is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[WEC] Glickenhaus Hypercar Akrapovic ACO Regulated Series 1599 4 Dec 2023 22:37
[WEC] Aston Martin Hypercar Discussion deggis ACO Regulated Series 175 23 Feb 2020 03:37
[WEC] SCG 007: Glickenhaus Le Mans LMP1 Hypercar Bentley03 ACO Regulated Series 26 16 Nov 2018 02:35
ALMS Extends LMP Regulations tblincoe North American Racing 33 26 Aug 2005 15:03
[LM24] Whats the future of LMP's at Le Mans?? Garrett 24 Heures du Mans 59 8 Jul 2004 15:15


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.