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Old 2 Jul 2019, 05:13 (Ref:3915451)   #7076
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Originally Posted by merak1974 View Post
I don't think the MC12 was a "work Ferrari Enzo" at all, and the differences between the cars are sufficiently large to suggest that the MC12 should indeed be regarded as a different car, although related of course. In fact, I don't think Ferrari was particularly happy about the whole project. While they accepted it, my understanding is rather that they did not really endorse the possibility of a Maserati outgunning Ferraris on the race track, which of course the MC12 did.
It's very much a homologation special Enzo. Even the interior is barely dressed up, there's about as much difference as between a regular McLaren F1 and the longtail.

Speaking of McLaren everything they said in that DSC article sounds like their IndyCar "program" so I'm pretty much just going to ignore them outright. Amazing how they turned into early 2010s Lotus so fast.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 09:22 (Ref:3915459)   #7077
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
Lamborghini Targeting Prototype Future
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...gram-for-2022/
V10, please Lamborghini, V10...
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3915479)   #7078
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I don't think the MC12 was a "work Ferrari Enzo" at all, and the differences between the cars are sufficiently large to suggest that the MC12 should indeed be regarded as a different car, although related of course. In fact, I don't think Ferrari was particularly happy about the whole project. While they accepted it, my understanding is rather that they did not really endorse the possibility of a Maserati outgunning Ferraris on the race track, which of course the MC12 did.

wrong, road and rancing MC12 share same carbon monocoque of Ferrari Enzo, it had a different bodywork that made the car longer and wider for a better racing purpose. V12 6L F140 is the same from Ferrari Enzo of course.
It was purposely built for GT1 since only 50 road cars have been produced, just to get the min. units homologation.


And "work" is the correct term because in old FIA GT1 work/official teams weren't allowed, but even if vitaphone racing (former konrad racing if am I not wrong) was entered as private entry, it was considerably backed by Ferrari during the years. Just think that during FIA GT 2009 vitaphone was the only team to field 3 cars (with 2 ferrari work drivers) while others barely could handle one car


BTW don't think Ferrari wasn't/isn't happy about MC12 since is one of their recent most winning racing car
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 12:12 (Ref:3915480)   #7079
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V10, please Lamborghini, V10...

well... lamborghini has just 3 engines in their line up


6.5L V12


audi-lamborghini 5.2L V10


audi-bentley-lamborghini 4L V8 twin tubro of bentley GT3


6.5L V12 guess is too much and isn't even that reliable in street aventadors....

4L V8 twin turbo or the bulletproof 5.2L V10 from R8/huracan gt3 unrestricted and pushed to >9000rpm
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 16:59 (Ref:3915521)   #7080
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I'd go for the V12 with a 100-150hp hybrid up front. The V12 will have more torque and produce more power and won't run as hard when it's limited to 600/650hp in race trim. The GT1 Murcielago ran the V12 to decent success and that engine has come a long way since then.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 17:08 (Ref:3915523)   #7081
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I'd go for the V12 with a 100-150hp hybrid up front. The V12 will have more torque and produce more power and won't run as hard when it's limited to 600/650hp in race trim. The GT1 Murcielago ran the V12 to decent success and that engine has come a long way since then.
The current V12 was new for the Aventador. It is unrelated to the original Lambo V12 that was used up until the Murcielago.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 17:23 (Ref:3915527)   #7082
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The current V12 was new for the Aventador. It is unrelated to the original Lambo V12 that was used up until the Murcielago.
Right, that's part of my point. If the original engine was good enough for racing the 'new' one should be as well. And it's more powerful and lighter etc. Weight doesn't seem to be an issue anyway thanks to the regulations. And then you have Aston Martin running their Valkyrie's V12.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 20:32 (Ref:3915548)   #7083
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In the Sportcar365 article Lamborghini motorsport boss Giorgio Sanna makes it clear that the factory wants a customer program--which would involve building multiple cars and spares---which might be a bit much for a brand-new car in the Hypercar class. One would imagine that Lambo would want more than one team using their chassis ... not sure how many top-rank private teams would be looking to spend $30-$40 million to race in Hypercar. One would think DPi-2.0 would be a sixth of that or something.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 22:09 (Ref:3915571)   #7084
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
wrong, road and rancing MC12 share same carbon monocoque of Ferrari Enzo, it had a different bodywork that made the car longer and wider for a better racing purpose. V12 6L F140 is the same from Ferrari Enzo of course.
It was purposely built for GT1 since only 50 road cars have been produced, just to get the min. units homologation.


And "work" is the correct term because in old FIA GT1 work/official teams weren't allowed, but even if vitaphone racing (former konrad racing if am I not wrong) was entered as private entry, it was considerably backed by Ferrari during the years. Just think that during FIA GT 2009 vitaphone was the only team to field 3 cars (with 2 ferrari work drivers) while others barely could handle one car

BTW don't think Ferrari wasn't/isn't happy about MC12 since is one of their recent most winning racing car
I think you are underestimating the Maserati contribution to and management of the MC12 project, and the numerous actual differences between the MC12 and the enzo; including important engine differences such as the gear driven cams in the Maserati.

The MC12 is a Maserati, not a ferrari.
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Old 2 Jul 2019, 22:15 (Ref:3915573)   #7085
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This is much better reading. Audi Sport boss said GTE plus was the way ...


https://www.topgear.com/car-news/mot...hypercar-class
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 08:43 (Ref:3915622)   #7086
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What would GTE plus have looked like though?

I suspect either not enough of a difference to current GTE cars, or a massive evolution that would have probably led to a late 90s GT1 demise through the homologation of purposely designed exploitations of the rules. Haven't Ford already said the GT could go much quicker in an evolved state? I can't see how something like the R8 could be brought up to par without having things like the GTs aero designed into it from the start.

Apart from that, do we really want to see a GT based top class at Le Mans?
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 12:09 (Ref:3915669)   #7087
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Originally Posted by merak1974 View Post
I think you are underestimating the Maserati contribution to and management of the MC12 project, and the numerous actual differences between the MC12 and the enzo; including important engine differences such as the gear driven cams in the Maserati.

The MC12 is a Maserati, not a ferrari.

dude... think it as you wish


MC12 was so ferrari unrelated as you say that even michael schumacher helped for testing and development
At that time ferrari was maserati's majority shareholder.

The MC12 GT1 progam (and then street and MC12 corsa) was a ferrari initiative.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 03:26 (Ref:3915794)   #7088
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In the Sportcar365 article Lamborghini motorsport boss Giorgio Sanna makes it clear that the factory wants a customer program--which would involve building multiple cars and spares---which might be a bit much for a brand-new car in the Hypercar class. One would imagine that Lambo would want more than one team using their chassis ... not sure how many top-rank private teams would be looking to spend $30-$40 million to race in Hypercar. One would think DPi-2.0 would be a sixth of that or something.
Why would they have to spend that much money? There's no rule that says you have to spend 40 million to compete. Looking at it from the new info we just learned, DPi 2.0 isn't going to be much cheaper. WTR said they already spend over 5 million per season and the next set of rules looks set to increase that pretty substantially. On top of that you don't get to run Le Mans with your DPi but you do with your 'hypercar'.

They could call up their countrymen Dallara, who did Audi's lmp's for years, for help. Or Ligier, or Oreca etc. There's constructors waiting to be involved with a manufacturer. And wit bop it doesn't seem like you need to worry about making the fastest most technically advanced car in the field. Just something quick enough to do a 3:20-3:30 and you'll get boosted up to the leader of the pack (as bad as that sounds).
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 05:01 (Ref:3915801)   #7089
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Originally Posted by Juntos View Post
This is much better reading. Audi Sport boss said GTE plus was the way ...


https://www.topgear.com/car-news/mot...hypercar-class
This reminded me that the first Audi project for Le Mans was an R8 GT1 before the LMP1.



https://fourtitude.com/features/Misc...car-proposals/
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 05:15 (Ref:3915802)   #7090
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Why would they have to spend that much money? There's no rule that says you have to spend 40 million to compete. Looking at it from the new info we just learned, DPi 2.0 isn't going to be much cheaper. WTR said they already spend over 5 million per season and the next set of rules looks set to increase that pretty substantially. On top of that you don't get to run Le Mans with your DPi but you do with your 'hypercar'.

They could call up their countrymen Dallara, who did Audi's lmp's for years, for help. Or Ligier, or Oreca etc. There's constructors waiting to be involved with a manufacturer. And wit bop it doesn't seem like you need to worry about making the fastest most technically advanced car in the field. Just something quick enough to do a 3:20-3:30 and you'll get boosted up to the leader of the pack (as bad as that sounds).
This relationship of Dallara-SMP-AF Corse plus the possibility that private teams can buy cars makes me think that Ferrari could be in the game.
SMP currently race the BR01 built by Dallara, race Ferraris 488 join AF Corse in the WEC and Blacpain too and they will need a new car for the Hypercar rules. Also I remember that the 333SP and the F50 GT were built by Dallara in those days.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 14:50 (Ref:3915872)   #7091
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This reminded me that the first Audi project for Le Mans was an R8 GT1 before the LMP1.



https://fourtitude.com/features/Misc...car-proposals/
To be fair the hypercar rules do remind me of the late 90 GT Prototypes we had in the late 90s at Le Mans. So it would be great if it does work
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 16:43 (Ref:3915880)   #7092
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This reminded me that the first Audi project for Le Mans was an R8 GT1 before the LMP1.



https://fourtitude.com/features/Misc...car-proposals/
Was this not the TT? They were looking at entering an Audi TT into the GT class. But the cost of it was so high that it was equal to an LMP project, which would obviously go for overall wins.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 17:26 (Ref:3915889)   #7093
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Was this not the TT? They were looking at entering an Audi TT into the GT class. But the cost of it was so high that it was equal to an LMP project, which would obviously go for overall wins.
The article talks about the 2 projects, the R8 GT1 and the G-TT GT2. The R8 GT1 was modified later in the R8C. you should read it.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 17:34 (Ref:3915890)   #7094
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The article talks about the 2 projects, the R8 GT1 and the G-TT GT2. The R8 GT1 was modified later in the R8C. you should read it.
I would have, but...

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Old 4 Jul 2019, 18:27 (Ref:3915901)   #7095
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The link works for me....
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 18:34 (Ref:3915903)   #7096
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Still down for me, but given that Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Apple, Microsoft and AWS have all been down today, it's safe to say that it's probably related to that and I have a CDN that hasn't updated yet.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 19:20 (Ref:3915909)   #7097
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I would have, but...

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4T : Design Miscellaneous Features
words: Peter Stevens
25 July 2014

Editor’s Note: We first encountered designer Peter Stevens on Facebook earlier this month. We learned that longtime automotive designer was once involved with an Audi Le Mans project that pre-dated that of the R8R LMP1. At the time, Audi was exploring both the building of a supercar and the entry into Le Mans style sports car racing. GT1 & GT2 efforts were the hot formula at the time and the Audi TT was Ingolstadt’s only sports car.

Examining specs proposed, the car looked to be a radical undertaking. Had they been approved, both race and road versions of the G-TT were proposed to have a mid-mounted V8 twin turbo engine, 6-speed sequential gearbox, Brembo 4-piston brakes, OZ wheels, double wishbone inboard coil spring dampers and an aluminum and carbon monocoque chassis.

Looking back on the era, the Porsche 911 GT1 and Mercedes-Benz CLK GT1 are fascinating and incredibly rare examples of what could have been. Given all of this, we’re incredibly excited to have the G-TT (GT2) and TT GT1 story told in Mr. Stevens’ own words and augmented with design drawings, schematics and photos from the time period provided by the author.



Following a number of very successful years in the British Saloon car championship running first Volkswagen Golfs and then Audis, Richard Lloyd and I had a plan for a Le Mans eligible GT2 Audi, tentatively called G-TT. I made a number of design drawings as part of a proposal to Audi that was presented in January 1997 for the 1998 season. This was before we carried out a much bigger research study for an Audi GT1 project called R8 GT that later became the Le Mans R8 project. There was a package layout for the G-TT and a specification page from the report document which is attached. Audi’s road-car division, under Doctor Ulrich Hackenburg, were working on a mid-placed V8 engined version of the new front-engined TT. We had the opportunity to do some laps of Audi’s short test track as passengers in the car, late in 1996.



The idea for the G-TT was that it should look similar to the current TT but have a much greater road presence and a layout that would have made a very competitive GT2 race car. The engineering was looked after by Jim Router and Gerry Booen, both ex-Lotus guys; the overall project direction came from chief designer Nigel Stroud. I was in charge of aesthetics and aero development as well as presentation content for our Audi meetings at Ingolstadt.





The next logical step beyond the Audi TT based GT2 was to consider a GT1 Le Mans car. The McLaren F1 GTR had shown that a GT1 car could compete for overall victory at Le Mans, therefore a more race car oriented GT appealed to Audi.

Work started on this project towards the end of 1996 and by February 1997 a complex wind tunnel development programme was underway at the Activa rolling road tunnel. This tunnel had previously been the Brabham Team aerodynamic facility, at the time it was available and comparatively inexpensive but perhaps not with as much repeatability as we would have liked. 550 runs were carried out with more than 50 variations of concept under the direction of designer Nigel Stroud, engineer Jim Router and myself.



The objective was to find a good efficiency for the car, this required not only the development of reliable downforce but also low drag. We were looking for a lift over drag, L/D ration of about 3.20. From an acceptable race-car base line we then worked back to produce a road-car specification that gave an exciting looking customer car with plenty of opportunity for development. This was more in the manner that Mercedes and Porsche worked than the McLaren F1 which started out as a pure road-car that was later developed for racing.



In parallel with the aero development we produced a full size side view tape drawing, a full size seating buck and a design presentation for senior Audi personnel, which included CEO Franz Paefgen, motorsport chief Wolfgang Ulrich, head of engine development (a good friend) Ulrich Baretzki and design chief Peter Schreyer.



The project, codenamed ‘Aurora’ was intended to become the Audi GT1 R8 but during 1997 it became evident that the new category for Le Mans Prototypes, LMP was where future winners would come from. As well as all the engineering development proposals Richard Lloyd presented a very complete business plan for the GT1, this undoubtedly caught the eye of Doctor Ulrich who could see the possibilities of a long term project for his Ingolstadt based team.



Richard Lloyd’s group went on to develop the Audi R8C for the 1999 Le Mans 24 hour race under the design direction of good friend Tony Southgate whilst I worked with Williams and BMW to produce the LM99 winning car. The R8C was a good looking car but I suspect that the Audi factory effort was more focused on their own R8 open car, the first of a series which continue to dominate Le Mans.

Peter Stevens

July 2014
This is the full article.
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Old 4 Jul 2019, 19:35 (Ref:3915911)   #7098
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Thank you, I appreciate the effort!
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Old 5 Jul 2019, 01:21 (Ref:3915946)   #7099
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Such cool cars that could have continued racing but then lmp took over. Maybe this generation will have the same thing and we can drop bop and such when it (hopefully) gets more popular.
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Old 29 Jul 2019, 11:52 (Ref:3920220)   #7100
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I hadn't considered the possibility that Hypercar could kill the LMP2 tyre war. Kinda makes sense if you are trying to control the performance of your second string prototypes relative to your new, slower top class. Hope it doesn't happen.

"Victory in that tender process could pave the way for an exclusivity deal in LMP2 too. The ACO and FIA will look to level off the performance curve that open-tyre competition creates to prevent LMP2s from making strides. Any further gains in the coming seasons will only complicate the matter of separating the current crop of Gibson-powered prototypes and the ‘Hypercar Prototypes’, which are due to be significantly slower than the current LMP1s."

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...-goodyear.html
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