Quickest rally drivers on tarmac/asphalt?

[chunterer]

I caught some old 80's footage of event like The Manx, San Remo and Ypres recently and marvelled at the names that were taking part as well as some of the equipment.

When 'i were a lad' I was quite into the Group 4 and Group B's but lost interest in the 90's.

I always recall that some drivers were more at home on ashphalt and some on the loose, but who were the real tarmac rally aces?

The late Tony Pond springs to mind, he seemed to be able to make anything go well but I always understood that Rohrl, Toivonen, McRae Senior and Brookes were aces as well?

What about the French and Belgian drivers who did most of their major events on the black stuff like Auriol, Frequelin, Ragnotti and Duez, Sniyers and Droogmans?

[VIVA GT]

Ari Vatanen was alway a great hero of mine in the MkII Escort Days, he was so committed (or close to a big accident) on Tarmac.
I think it was at the start of the TV coverage of the Manx Rally one year when his Black Escort suddenly lunged into view, totally sideways with huge slick tyres totally filling the wheelarches of the car.
As you say, Tony Pond was another one, and also now departed, Pentti Arikkala (especially in the Chevette HSR) was another good one.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Ari Vatanen was alway a great hero of mine in the MkII Escort Days, he was so committed (or close to a big accident) on Tarmac.
I think it was at the start of the TV coverage of the Manx Rally one year when his Black Escort suddenly lunged into view, totally sideways with huge slick tyres totally filling the wheelarches of the car.
As you say, Tony Pond was another one, and also now departed, Pentti Arikkala (especially in the Chevette HSR) was another good one.

I've had the privilege to sit with Ari at speed in a rally car and can confirm he was / is like that everywhere. The experience was in Finland and usually at night during practice (as it was then!) for 1000 Lakes.

Patrick Snijers and Mark Duez always impressed me on tarmac. Certainly Auriol was quick as well, and Tony Pond best 'home grown' challenger.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I've had the privilege to sit with Ari at speed in a rally car and can confirm he was / is like that everywhere. The experience was in Finland and usually at night during practice (as it was then!) for 1000 Lakes.

Patrick Snijers and Mark Duez always impressed me on tarmac. Certainly Auriol was quick as well, and Tony Pond best 'home grown' challenger.

Respect Mike, respect! I bet that was an awesome experience...

[phoenix]

In addition to others mentioned previously, Walter Rohrl was quick on tarmac - and he was used by Lancia to drive both their rally and race cars. In his day Vic Elford was a winner for Porsche in rallying and sports car racing and I believe he drove in F1 and Canam and NASCAR. For good measure he won the first ever Rallycross event at Lydden!

[KA]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Patrick Snijers and Mark Duez always impressed me on tarmac. .

Snijers in the Prodrive/Bastos BMW M3 on the '88 Manx...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkYx3mHSR5Y

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by phoenix

In addition to others mentioned previously, Walter Rohrl was quick on tarmac - and he was used by Lancia to drive both their rally and race cars. In his day Vic Elford was a winner for Porsche in rallying and sports car racing and I believe he drove in F1 and Canam and NASCAR. For good measure he won the first ever Rallycross event at Lydden!

Vic Elford is probably the best 'allrounder' motorsport has produced. Very, very quick in all disciplines (though I've not seen any results for him in Drag Racing or Trials!!).

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by KA

Snijers in the Prodrive/Bastos BMW M3 on the '88 Manx...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkYx3mHSR5Y

Yes, that was the drive that really stood out. Think I have it on a Video somewhere- must have a look! Having done a couple of tarmac rallies in Belgium I can understand why the Belgians were so quick.

Agree about Rhorl & Elford being other worthy tarmac drivers. but still rate Snijers / M3 / Manx top performance.


Viva, I could tell more but nor really on topic!

[Chris Townsend]

Jean Ragnotti went well in both circuit racing and rallying, getting to a good F3 drive in 1973 and later pedalling a Renault 5 Turbo with success. Ragnotti was good on most surfaces - I remember watching him with a little Renault 5 GT on the RAC one year [1977?] getting the car to improbable speeds. Not quite in Elford's league but a pretty good all-rounder.

Bernard Beguin, in the late 70s and 80s a Porsche driver of considerable skill in French and international tarmac rallies, also drove one of the Ecurie Volants Shell works entered Martini MK12s in 1973 F3.

[chunterer]

Yeah I think Beguin drove one of the Rothmans cars on and off along with the likes of Billy Coleman (he was a handy tarmac man), Toivonen, Jim McRae and one or two others. The Rothmans cars come to think of it were a bit like celebrity driver entries!!!

The were also a few handy Italians going back in time as well weren't there?

Bettega is one off the top of my head?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The late Tony Pond springs to mind, he seemed to be able to make anything go well

Sure could Chunty..... here is a clip which shows it was in ANYTHING.

Tony had a mission to lap the TT circuit on the IoM at an average speed in excess of 100mph. In a standard Rover 827. (with a roll cage and decent rubber) He did it with no notes or navigator in order to save weight!

On-board Footage of that TT Challenge

[ORP]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yeah I think Beguin drove one of the Rothmans cars on and off along with the likes of Billy Coleman (he was a handy tarmac man), Toivonen, Jim McRae and one or two others. The Rothmans cars come to think of it were a bit like celebrity driver entries!!!

The were also a few handy Italians going back in time as well weren't there?

Bettega is one off the top of my head?

Dont forget Bertie Fisher and Austin McHale and the GpB Opel Manta 400.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFGAn...eature=related

[Mike Bell]

Ireland has produced some very quick tarmac drivers! Obvious really but countries that produce the best are those that allow public roads to be closed for tarmac rallies. I remember a few years ago being in a little town in N Italy on holiday. Sunday morning was woken by sounds of rally cars assembling in the square for a local tarmac event. Lucky, *******s, I thought! Such a shame that we can't do the same in UK.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by E.B

Sure could Chunty..... here is a clip which shows it was in ANYTHING.

Tony had a mission to lap the TT circuit on the IoM at an average speed in excess of 100mph. In a standard Rover 827. (with a roll cage and decent rubber) He did it with no notes or navigator in order to save weight!

On-board Footage of that TT Challenge

For me TP was a one-off. No one else like him before or since. There's also a clip of him starting a stage on the COI (i think?) in a Vitesse and quickly getting up to something like top whack in thick fog. The narrator says 'this is where the driver and co-driver must have complete trust in one another.'

NOT HALF!!!!!

Originally Posted by ORP

Dont forget Bertie Fisher and Austin McHale and the GpB Opel Manta 400.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFGAn...eature=related

Oh yes, handly drivers both! Did both of them also drive M3's at some stage or other as well?

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Ireland has produced some very quick tarmac drivers! Obvious really but countries that produce the best are those that allow public roads to be closed for tarmac rallies. I remember a few years ago being in a little town in N Italy on holiday. Sunday morning was woken by sounds of rally cars assembling in the square for a local tarmac event. Lucky, *******s, I thought! Such a shame that we can't do the same in UK.

Ha ha must've been a great holiday to wake up and hear that!!

I used to live near West Mid's Safari Park, where as you know the RAC visited on occassion in the 80's. Long after that stopped happening there were sometimes local club stage events going on and it was possible to hear the various cars being thrashed about across the valley where I lived, that and the Lion's being fed.......

Another couple of ace tarmac exponents that I remember were Francois Chatriot and Gregiore de Mevius. Both rallied M3's at one point did a bit of racing in similar cars as well IIRC?

[thiscocks]

Love that Snijers vid. That M3 looks really nicely set up.

Bruno Saby and Miki Biason were always quick on tarmac. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERBn4...eature=related

In the more modern era Puras, Panizzi and Delecour were all v good on tarmac. Now I gues Leob is...

[Alan Brown]

It was about time that Biasion and Delecour were mentioned but I am amazed that nobody has mentioned Sandro Munari who was fantastic in the Stratos but who also did well in the Targa Florio.

Another one is Jean-Claude Andruet.

[chunterer]

Terry Kaby.

I think he could have gone far in rallying or circuit racing had he got the right breaks at the right time.

He always seemed to end up in cars that were past their prime and ragged them to breakage!

[S griffin]

Gilles Panizzi was quite good on the asphalt

[KA]

Something that a few people have picked up on earlier in the thread about a lot of the really quick European drivers on tarmac events- they were all-rounders who had fairly substantial experience on race circuits as well as the rally stages- Rohrl drove in Lancia's sportscar programmes and for Audi in the DTM, Marc Duez was a regular in touring cars and sportscars, Andruet did a fair bit of sportscars, including several runs at Le Mans; etc. French and Belgian drivers in particular seemed to cross over to the circuits fairly regularly- Michele Mouton is another one who had a handful of Le Mans starts (and a class win IIRC) on her CV.

Amongst UK drivers, Tony Pond was seriously quick in touring cars for Austin Rover, and as someone said, Vic Elford was probably the ultimate all-rounder.

[chunterer]

There was some footage a while back of Rohrl taming some beast or other around the Nurburgring. One of those gobsmacking sort of views!

One tarmac ace that seemed to come and go in a flash was Carlo Capone?

Had a few years apprenticship with Fiat and then got a big break in an 037 and won the 1984 ERC, defeating one Henri Toivonen in the process!

Looks like he packed it in after that?

Clearly this guy was a serious talent but anyone know the reasons why he never went on from there?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

There was some footage a while back of Rohrl taming some beast or other around the Nurburgring. One of those gobsmacking sort of views!

One tarmac ace that seemed to come and go in a flash was Carlo Capone?

Had a few years apprenticship with Fiat and then got a big break in an 037 and won the 1984 ERC, defeating one Henri Toivonen in the process!

Looks like he packed it in after that?

Clearly this guy was a serious talent but anyone know the reasons why he never went on from there?

As you say, Capone seemed to just disappear off the map after an ERC win that ought to have propelled him into the top flight of a regular WRC drive.

Looking at the Italian version of his Wikipedia entry, and a couple of Italian website articles through the wonders of Google translate, it seems to be a really sad story.

The articles suggest he wasn't the easiest of drivers to work with- former co-driver Luigi Pirollo describes him as 'a loose cannon, difficult, shy, introverted, silent but at the same time unpredictable'.
The outcome was that at the peak of his success in '84, he had a massive bust-up with Lancia, which pretty much ended his career.

The bone of contention apparently was Toivonen- Henri's programme that year was a mixture of an ERC campaign in a Dave Richards-run Rothmans 911, and selected WRC rounds in a works Martini Lancia. When Capone beat Toivonen to the ERC title, only to see his rival offered a full-season Lancia contract, he was apparently very unhappy about it and spoke out in the Italian press, resulting in Lancia giving him the push.

According to the Italian articles, he was also affected by personal tragedies including the death of his daughter, and has suffered major mental health problems.

https://translate.google.com/transla...e/&prev=search

https://translate.google.com/transla...a/&prev=search

[chunterer]

Wow, that is some fantastic info, thankyou KA...

Sounds like an extremely unfortunate turn of events put paid to his career.

Makes you wonder why he could not have picked up a contract with another outfit, unless Fiorio or Pianta refused to provide a reference!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

There was some footage a while back of Rohrl taming some beast or other around the Nurburgring. One of those gobsmacking sort of views!

Rohrl was certainly quick on tarmac.... he was a class winner in a Porsche at Le Mans back in the 80's. He was for many years after he retired the Porsche senior test driver at the Nurburgring, and only a few years ago was due to drive in the Nurburgring 24 hours but a back injury upset his plans. I have seen stuff of him on youtube in various Porsches and he certainly doesnt hang around.

[S griffin]

Rohrl was certainly one who made the transition to circuit racing with no trouble. He was great in both disciplines. I seem to remember reading a story of how he impressed Schumi round the Nurburgring once. Can’t remember the exact details

[hoffman66]

Any remember Tony Worswick, ran the Ferari 308 and had a go at F3000 aswell.

As far as tar drivers here go, John Price was damn good, I always thought Mark Lovell was as quick as anyone on his day, Jimmy was perhaps the dominant one for years on tar in the UK too.

Europe wise, you had Andruet, Nicholas, Ragnotti, Bugalski, Loubet, Saby, Biasion, Cerrato, Capone, Bettega, Vudafieri, Cerrato, Auriol was insane on tar at times.

Belgians obviosuly, Loix, Droogmans, Snijers,

But choice overall wold be Marc Duez.