[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[Born Racer]

I can't see why it would make sense to have a scapegoat. Williams seem too pragmatic to have someone fall on their sword unnecessarily (even if they are accountable to their shareholders). Perhaps the view is that the buck stops there at that level of management, and that as he was responsible for getting the right people to do the right things, he hadn't got the right fusion out of the workforce, rather than it being an issue of what he did per se. It's tough to be a manager in that regard.

Do they have a plan, though? I don't know what that plan would be yet.

[Moneyseeker]

I think it was a cumulative effect with PL, he was bullish about the 2018 car at launch, fairly confident about updates all of which was misplaced. Don't forget the British GP last year when the new wing made the car undriveable, threw both cars off the road and forced them to replace with the old version and start from the pitlane.

Add to that the late 2019 car, the fact it is slow and now faces modifications to make it legal, it all paints a pretty poor picture. PL probably ran out of road and credibility within Williams.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[chillibowl]

there share price went up a bit today so markets responding favourably to Lowe's leave of absence.

https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/cor...re-information

amusing to think his departure has actually made his holdings more valuable.

[P38 in workshop]

Lets see now;late,short of spares and a bit dubious on conforming to the rules.I would have thought any one of those would reduce job security a bit.

I'm not sure whether we should feel sorry for whoever gets to pick up the pieces.They would have to work really hard to make things worse.Could you justify promoting from within or are they implicated too?

[S griffin]

Hopefully they find a replacement for Lowe who will get them out of this mess in good time

[Tourer]

What a mess (if all the various reports are accurate).

Long way from the hard-nosed, pragmatic, focussed ethos of this team. Sounds like someone is needed to grab the whole setup by the scruff of the neck, give it a very big shake & get it back to basics with a laser-like focus.

[Moneyseeker]

https://www.omologatowatches.com/blo...-edge-williams


Peter Windsors take on it. You may recall he worked for Williams in the heyday and was in the car with SFW when he had his accident as they returned from the Jerez test. He has good Williams insight and is probably a different take on it than others have speculated on.

[Peter Mallett]

I read that with interest. He suggests the wrong person has been promoted to the top job.

[S griffin]

Johnny Williams would be probably be a good person for the job by the sounds of it. I read though that Williams want to make sure their car passes the FIA legality

[Moneyseeker]

I think part of the problems are that when the Mercedes was the dominant engine it some what flattered Williams results and they were also able to 'benefit' from Reb Bull's trouble Renault relationship in the early hybrid era.


This masked underlying problems within the organisation and probably convinced Williams that they were a top 3 or 4 team with the rider that they couldn't compete with the factory teams on budget.


Then Force India came along and beat them on a smaller budget and much less in terms of overall resources which kind of blew Williams budget argument out of the water and pointed to more underlying problems in the organisation. Haas then appeared with a small efficient team, a bought in chassis from Dallara and whatever Ferrari bits are allowed and did the same.


All of a sudden Williams finds itself with 600 staff, great depth of resources but somehow unable to effectively deploy them.



They have no benefactor investor, no manufacturer, they rely on what they can raise in sponsorship and FOM funds for championship positions, to add to this F1 is no longer as profitable as it was due to Liberty's investment in F1, so the teams revenue is going down and under a new concorde agreement it is likely that extra payments to teams for just being who they are/were historically will be reduced or cut altogether.


They have had a revolving door of tech staff all of whom have made little impact on the organisation. Pat Symonds had a go and identified departments not talking to each other and an alleged blame culture that simply stifled innovation in case it didn't work and bame was apportioned, pretty much the same that Ross Brawn allegedly found at Ferrari when he took over.


If you were asking me for a solution it would be not to have any Williams family as team principle, I would move all the family upstairs to the board and appoint a pure professional team principle - I would look outside of F1 and not poach staff and look and see who in (for example) factory WEC teams would be suitable from LMP1 or recent LMP1 experience or maybe WRC - what could M-Sport bring to Williams?


Other forums have mentioned Jorg Zander as a possible tech replacement, but it is almost not worth appointing anyone new until the underlying problems are solved.


All of this needs to be a balance of not rushed but not take too long...

[justracing]

Fascinating article which seems to indicate diplomatically that perhaps Claire's skills are in doubt compared with that of her brother's pedigree, as was Frank's decision(or more possibly financial pressure) to appoint Claire as CEO.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by justracing

Fascinating article which seems to indicate diplomatically that perhaps Claire's skills are in doubt compared with that of her brother's pedigree, as was Frank's decision(or more possibly financial pressure) to appoint Claire as CEO.

Personally, I think Claire is so consumed by both protecting Williams legacy, whilst proving her ability to run the team to Frank that she is too close to the situation, the whole Williams name over the door factor.


It needs an outsider, a pragmatist or Williams might end up being a high street shop in the internet age. Look at the many massive brands that have simply not moved with the times, dept stores that can no longer finance vast prime position stores and compete with nimble online retailers.


Maybe Williams needs to decide whether it needs/wants to be an 800 staff business and how it gets there and funds it or a 300 staff business that buys in more skills and tech. That doesn't make it less of an F1 team, pragmatically I can't see the point of being a proud independent constructor that builds a car a second a lap slower than a team with half the staff and half the costs, just to say 'but we did it ourselves'.


The car industry is all out sourcing and platform sharing.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Maybe Williams needs to decide whether it needs/wants to be an 800 staff business and how it gets there and funds it or a 300 staff business that buys in more skills and tech. That doesn't make it less of an F1 team,

Exactly this. When Williams started out they bought in the whole car. I don't see why they couldn't go back to buying in large chunks of components - it doesn't diminish the teams legacy at all.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Personally, I think Claire is so consumed by both protecting Williams legacy, whilst proving her ability to run the team to Frank that she is too close to the situation, the whole Williams name over the door factor.


It needs an outsider, a pragmatist or Williams might end up being a high street shop in the internet age. Look at the many massive brands that have simply not moved with the times, dept stores that can no longer finance vast prime position stores and compete with nimble online retailers.


Maybe Williams needs to decide whether it needs/wants to be an 800 staff business and how it gets there and funds it or a 300 staff business that buys in more skills and tech. That doesn't make it less of an F1 team, pragmatically I can't see the point of being a proud independent constructor that builds a car a second a lap slower than a team with half the staff and half the costs, just to say 'but we did it ourselves'.


The car industry is all out sourcing and platform sharing.

But I don't think it's possible to be a 'proud independent constructor' who can say 'but we did it ourselves) when the car is a second a lap slower. Why can't Williams realise that?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I think part of the problems are that when the Mercedes was the dominant engine it some what flattered Williams results and they were also able to 'benefit' from Reb Bull's trouble Renault relationship in the early hybrid era.


This masked underlying problems within the organisation and probably convinced Williams that they were a top 3 or 4 team with the rider that they couldn't compete with the factory teams on budget.


Then Force India came along and beat them on a smaller budget and much less in terms of overall resources which kind of blew Williams budget argument out of the water and pointed to more underlying problems in the organisation. Haas then appeared with a small efficient team, a bought in chassis from Dallara and whatever Ferrari bits are allowed and did the same.


All of a sudden Williams finds itself with 600 staff, great depth of resources but somehow unable to effectively deploy them.



They have no benefactor investor, no manufacturer, they rely on what they can raise in sponsorship and FOM funds for championship positions, to add to this F1 is no longer as profitable as it was due to Liberty's investment in F1, so the teams revenue is going down and under a new concorde agreement it is likely that extra payments to teams for just being who they are/were historically will be reduced or cut altogether.


They have had a revolving door of tech staff all of whom have made little impact on the organisation. Pat Symonds had a go and identified departments not talking to each other and an alleged blame culture that simply stifled innovation in case it didn't work and bame was apportioned, pretty much the same that Ross Brawn allegedly found at Ferrari when he took over.


If you were asking me for a solution it would be not to have any Williams family as team principle, I would move all the family upstairs to the board and appoint a pure professional team principle - I would look outside of F1 and not poach staff and look and see who in (for example) factory WEC teams would be suitable from LMP1 or recent LMP1 experience or maybe WRC - what could M-Sport bring to Williams?


Other forums have mentioned Jorg Zander as a possible tech replacement, but it is almost not worth appointing anyone new until the underlying problems are solved.


All of this needs to be a balance of not rushed but not take too long...

Jorg Zander?!!! Why?? What is his previous?

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I read that with interest. He suggests the wrong person has been promoted to the top job.

Hasn't that been obvious for quite some time?

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Jorg Zander?!!! Why?? What is his previous?

Rather than Jorge Sander,I think they need a Colin Kolles .They ought to already have the collective brainpower to design a car that works.My opinion is that a few egos need to be banged together to make the car work.

I read the Peter Windsor piece referred to earlier and couldn't help thinking its a very long time since he was an insider.My memory also tells me that iSport were a splinter group of Super Nova,although I am willing to be corrected.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Jorg Zander?!!! Why?? What is his previous?

Several F1 roles and more recently head of technology at Audi on their LMP1 car in the WEC, then 2017 tech director at Sauber.

[bella]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But I don't think it's possible to be a 'proud independent constructor' who can say 'but we did it ourselves) when the car is a second a lap slower. Why can't Williams realise that?

because it’s their Thing, how they sell the team to the sponsors.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Rather than Jorge Sander,I think they need a Colin Kolles .They ought to already have the collective brainpower to design a car that works.My opinion is that a few egos need to be banged together to make the car work.

I read the Peter Windsor piece referred to earlier and couldn't help thinking its a very long time since he was an insider.My memory also tells me that iSport were a splinter group of Super Nova,although I am willing to be corrected.

isport did emerge out of Super Nova and I agree that it is a distant piece to a certain extent and that buying and engineering a spec car in a spec series is vastly different from building an F1 car and running it. But Vasseur is showing that a good team leader in spec series (ART in his case and of course setting up Spark industries to build the FE car) is a good team leader in F1.


Not sure about Kolles, although I think that McLaren did the right thing in appointing the ex-Porsche LMP1 team principal. As I said before, I would like to see Malcom Wilson at Williams (if he had the time) WRC title pedigree, large scale operation, design and production of track and rally cars. Known for attention to detail and wanting everything right.


You could equally argue that someone from a tech industy (not neccesarily F1) would make a good team principal or logisitics. To someone running a world wide operation with millions of movements per annum and just in time deliveries etc, those skills would be transferable to running an F1 operation.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by bella

because it’s their Thing, how they sell the team to the sponsors.

I think they are heavily reliant on pedigree to sell sponsorship, sure some of the plucky underdog washes with some but tooling around at the back isn't great PR and to be fair it cost them two paying customers last year.


Most people neither know or care what is under the bodywork and honestly if Mercedes build the gear box and accompanying rear end to go with the engine they build, why not buy it? Why waste money and resources building your own, does Williams think it can build a better gearbox than Mercedes. Why not take advantage of the millions of R&D investment and thousands of manhours Daimler has spent on designing and building it. It makes, no sense.

[chillibowl]

Williams' refusal to buy more from Merc, however noble on the surface, is imo a very hypocritical position for them to take. they clearly have no problem poaching staff in order to implement/take whatever ideas and institutional knowledge they can take from their competitors yet they draw a moral line at buying those ideas/products at a fair price (or at least at a price far cheaper then they themselves could build it for...thats why they buy engines right?).

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Williams' refusal to buy more from Merc, however noble on the surface, is imo a very hypocritical position for them to take. they clearly have no problem poaching staff in order to implement/take whatever ideas and institutional knowledge they can take from their competitors yet they draw a moral line at buying those ideas/products at a fair price (or at least at a price far cheaper then they themselves could build it for...thats why they buy engines right?).

But do we know that the issues relate to parts that could be bought in from Mercedes?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

But do we know that the issues relate to parts that could be bought in from Mercedes?

Not necessarily - but by buying in for example the gearbox they can spend their budget on the problem areas. Buying a gearbox is going to be cheaper than having a department and facilities to design and build your own. That money could be used on aero or whatever the problem is.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

But do we know that the issues relate to parts that could be bought in from Mercedes?

Indeed. Williams is already buying the gearbox from Mercedes. What could they possibly buy more from Mercedes without violating the rules? After all, each team must build its own chassis.

I think the answer for the recent troubles of Williams is inside of this team. Williams has been extremely erratic this whole decade. They go from midfield in 2010 to a backmarker in 2011, and then back to midfield and even winning race in 2012. They do well with the post-2013 Mercedes engine, Massa, and Bottas, but then go back from hero to zero now. Why?

One problem Williams has once in a while IMHO, and relying too much on pay drivers. In the 2018 season, they relied on two average and very green pay-drivers with pretty much expected results. They should have retained at least one proven good driver. It would have been much better to retain Massa for 2018 if they didn't have other alternatives.