BMW rumour for Le Mans 2017

[Artur]

Originally Posted by Acid09

A few weeks ago, Jens Marquardt openly worried about DTM becoming to aero-depended as BMW uses their road-car wind tunnels to develop the race cars, they don't even have dedicated facilities for that the way Audi or Mercedes have.

I remember that but I'm not sure what dedicated facilities Audi and Mercedes have for that, as well. For LMP1, Audi uses Sauber wind tunnel(or at least used to do so) and Mercedes just supplies it's top PUs to the Brackley team which is responsible for "their" F1 car

Another thing we have to consider is that WEC doesn't have F1 bullshit restrictions. When F1 was more free, Ferrari never needed a wind tunnel(that's partially why they have been suffering so much since 2009. Their own wind tunnel consistently have had correlations problems and they were using Toyota's Cologne one at some point). If they needed to evaluate CFD predictions, they would just go to the track(Fiorano, for that matter, which was nearby) and have real results right there on the spot.

All BMW would need is super computers and CFD(relatively cheap) and then run on some private(don't know if they have one) track to test it.

BMW consistently supplied the most powerful engines in F1 against several others marques like Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault, so I don't see them lagging behind on that department.

All in all, if they could showcase a proven succesfull tech with hydrogen-powered fuel cell race car, that could fullfill their marketing's aims regardless of the results. They wouldn't need to win to sell their hydrogen-powered cars, they just need to prove the tech works reliably and is cost effective for the customer, imho.

[Articus]

I'm sure whatever it is that BMW is working on, they are already doing it. They most likely have a working group together already. Porsche debuted a car last year that was born in 2010-2011.

[rich07]

BMW still have Miramar in France as a private test track don't they??

[TF110]

Gotta say the article makes a good point in about going hydrogen... they are going to partner with Toyota in that area. Not sure how Toyota would feel about bmw being the first to do a hydrogen powered LM racer. I dont think theyd like to be beat to that like Audi was first to race with a hyrid lmp1. I think g56 is more likely at the moment and maybe it pushes the aco to open that up to lmp? Of note is theres a Gran Turismo vision car by Hyundai that uses a hydrogen hybrid powertrain in an lmp1 type car. This could open up the door to more than just bmw.

[Juntos]

BMW has no budget to fight the big dogs! They like to be mocked from time to time. FIA WEC is not just technology and ACO PR sing songs. It is a deep pocket war. Ask those guys at Cologne.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Juntos

BMW has no budget to fight the big dogs! They like to be mocked from time to time. FIA WEC is not just technology and ACO PR sing songs. It is a deep pocket war. Ask those guys at Cologne.

BMW is swimming in cash, it's all a question about whether they`re willing to open the wallet, same as Toyota.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Acid09

BMW is swimming in cash, it's all a question about whether they`re willing to open the wallet, same as Toyota.

It's not a question of budget, but return in investment.

Toyota and Honda in F1: waste of money.
Nissan in LMP1: I guess too.
Citroën in WRC and WTCC: waste of money.
Renault in F1: good investment when Alonso won, bad investment when Vettel won.

[Acid09]

Not sure why WRC would have been a bad investment for Citroen.

They had a works presence there for more than a decade and you'd think that the program was under scrutiny from the board for several times during that period.

So they must have been happy with what they got out of it, especially as it was extremely successful as well.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Not sure why WRC would have been a bad investment for Citroen.

They had a works presence there for more than a decade and you'd think that the program was under scrutiny from the board for several times during that period.

So they must have been happy with what they got out of it, especially as it was extremely successful as well.

Not to mention that in 2011 it was probably put directly against Peugeot LMP1 program and we know which one survived.

[Akrapovic]

I assume WRC is popular enough in other countries to justify the WRC program. In the UK, I wouldn't say it gets any coverage.

[TF110]

Loeb's name might have had a hand in that. He is pretty well-known.

[Deleted]

Back in July last year, what BMW stated for being number one request before seriously considering Formula E, was to kill off the ridiculous mid race car swapping. Well now that seems to be high on the agenda of proceedings (along the line), so who knows maybe BMW starts to swim to that direction after all?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123119

However, as the title says the series is sticking to it's dumbed down spec formula and backtracking in their words of opening up things, so the technological factor still stays millenia away from LMP1, electricity or not.

Elsewhere, since last time this thread had posts, there have been some "insider" talk of BMW looking at LM again, but nothing substantial.

[Deleted]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/b...8-regulations/

zzz

[J Jay]

No surprise, just keep the carrot dangling that much longer.

Although there was a mention of the potential for new factories in LMP1-H in RCE's LMP1 regulation review last month. I forget who exactly was quoted (it was one of the "Big 3"), but the supposedly full-electric entry was a non-starter because the manufacturer behind it wanted to use, amongst other things, permanent 4WD and torque vectoring. Sound familiar?

I'll dig up the exact quote if anyone is really interested, but it just sounded like an excuse as I read it.

[Acid09]

It's not really a carrot, BMW has made it clear that they want to use hydrogen. As long as the rules don't allow it they won't enter, it's that simple.

[chernaudi]

I don't think that it's illegal if a manufacturer puts money behind it, but with the current technology, hydrogen just isn't feasible from a performance stand point. Hydrogen fuel cells are in their infancy (even with the rumors that Audi will make a hydrogen fuel cell car if BMW don't), and BMW's 7 Series V12 powered by liquid hydrogen only makes a bit more than 260bhp, which frankly is puny for a 6 liter V12, and liquid hydrogen has very low energy density.

This is more of a case that if it doesn't make sense for the 2018 regs, no manufacturer will commit to it. Even Audi say that their proposed hydrogen fuel cell LMP1 is several years away from being close to reality.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

No surprise, just keep the carrot dangling that much longer.

Although there was a mention of the potential for new factories in LMP1-H in RCE's LMP1 regulation review last month. I forget who exactly was quoted (it was one of the "Big 3"), but the supposedly full-electric entry was a non-starter because the manufacturer behind it wanted to use, amongst other things, permanent 4WD and torque vectoring. Sound familiar?

I'll dig up the exact quote if anyone is really interested, but it just sounded like an excuse as I read it.

That one of the current lmp1 teams wanting to do the 4wd full time? I can think of a couple others that would be interested in doing that.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't think that it's illegal if a manufacturer puts money behind it, but with the current technology, hydrogen just isn't feasible from a performance stand point. Hydrogen fuel cells are in their infancy (even with the rumors that Audi will make a hydrogen fuel cell car if BMW don't), and BMW's 7 Series V12 powered by liquid hydrogen only makes a bit more than 260bhp, which frankly is puny for a 6 liter V12, and liquid hydrogen has very low energy density.

No one expects to burn hydrogen in ICE, all future hydrogen cars will use fuel cell. Under current energy and power rules fuel cell should produce constant 300 kW and battery buffer will take care for peak power and KERS. The major problem will obviously be weight and space (aero). A hydrogen fuel tank alone with 5 kg (710 MJ ~7 LeMans laps) of fuel capacity currently weights 90 kg.

[Juntos]

They are the jewel of denial. Turns out that the rumored hydrogen novel is fact, not fiction. And I have the inside scoop on who the author is.
BMW will just come in when the rules are favourable to them. They wont come for a fist fight with Audi and Porsche right now.

[jan bot]

Hydrogen might or might not become LMP1. But some students in Holland are trying hard to become the first to compete against combustion engined competition.

[Coach Ep]

link: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...lic-debut.html

[jan bot]

http://www.forze-delft.nl/forze-vii/
More info

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

link: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...lic-debut.html

I gotta say that caught me by surprise. I didn't know such a project was being worked on. Is this a completely separate job than the Green GT?

[TRuss]

Unrelated.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by joeb

I gotta say that caught me by surprise. I didn't know such a project was being worked on. Is this a completely separate job than the Green GT?

Yes.

But not the same I believe as this: http://inmotion.tue.nl

Lord knows what's all going on with these possible/potential Garage 56 entrants...