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Old 1 May 2012, 14:35 (Ref:3067896)   #1
begbier
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FISCAR FLIERS - 1950s 1100cc Racing & 1500cc Production Sports Racing Series

I'm curious as to whether there has ever been a historic series exclusively catering for sports racers with 1100cc or below?

Or, alternatively, a well supported class for such smaller displacement cars within a broader series? Something that effectively recreated the 1100cc and 1500cc classes of the late '50s.

Last edited by John Turner; 7 Jun 2013 at 11:57. Reason: Update
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Old 4 May 2012, 11:32 (Ref:3069277)   #2
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I don't think so. If you look at all the smaller engine cars in pre-66 sports racing (Lotus 23B, Elva Mk7 etc) less and less of them seem to be out and running these days. There used to be a lot in Masters Sports Racing Masters. HSCC Guards Trophy still get a few as well. But there don't seem to be as many racing now as there were a few years ago. And I've never seen anything exclusively for very small capacity cars. I doubt it would be viable.
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Old 5 May 2012, 10:52 (Ref:3069700)   #3
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When European historic racing took off in the mid 80s there were FIA & FISA Championships (or Trophys as they called them) for sports cars upto 1450cc (with an 1100 class) and a 1960 cut-off date.

They attracted a lot of Lola Mark 1s, Lotus 11s & 17s etc. to all the original historic racing festivals (Nurburgring, Monza, Montlhery, Zolder, Spa etc) but many of them ran 1220s, since they were more common and therefore much cheaper (which was important in those non-professional historic racing days).

The "exotic" big engined cars like Lotus 15s etc (!!) were much rarer and too expensive for most people to run in those days, so the grids tended to be pretty much as the 50s amateur events.
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Old 5 May 2012, 13:24 (Ref:3069810)   #4
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When European historic racing took off in the mid 80s there were FIA & FISA Championships (or Trophys as they called them) for sports cars upto 1450cc (with an 1100 class) and a 1960 cut-off date.

They attracted a lot of Lola Mark 1s, Lotus 11s & 17s etc. to all the original historic racing festivals (Nurburgring, Monza, Montlhery, Zolder, Spa etc) but many of them ran 1220s, since they were more common and therefore much cheaper (which was important in those non-professional historic racing days).

The "exotic" big engined cars like Lotus 15s etc (!!) were much rarer and too expensive for most people to run in those days, so the grids tended to be pretty much as the 50s amateur events.

Mmmm I like the sound of that.
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Old 9 May 2012, 14:19 (Ref:3071764)   #5
John Turner
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Rod, good to hear from you and food for thought ......... mmmmm.
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Old 16 May 2012, 22:17 (Ref:3075500)   #6
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Originally Posted by rogerwills View Post
If you look at all the smaller engine cars in pre-66 sports racing (Lotus 23B, Elva Mk7 etc) less and less of them seem to be out and running these days.
certainly not with small engines - Seems that every 23 built was originaly built as a 23B with a twin cam????? All of the period articles were apparently mistaken.

shame really. Some of the most interesting cars are the one off specials which ran in those classes. So far i've owned 'Pandora' :mid mounted A-Series engine, the Coldwell Mink: front engined 1000cc A Series F3 / clubmans car (split beam front axle but IRS!) and my current unknown project - maybe 1100 sports racer, early clubmans, F1200?????

They seem to have been a mainstay of club events in the mid 50s to mid 60s, but this doesn't seem to fit in with the high end sportscar grids seen at historic meetings - 'History isn't what it was' and all that
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Old 17 May 2012, 09:07 (Ref:3075597)   #7
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certainly not with small engines - Seems that every 23 built was originaly built as a 23B with a twin cam????? All of the period articles were apparently mistaken.

shame really. Some of the most interesting cars are the one off specials which ran in those classes. So far i've owned 'Pandora' :mid mounted A-Series engine, the Coldwell Mink: front engined 1000cc A Series F3 / clubmans car (split beam front axle but IRS!) and my current unknown project - maybe 1100 sports racer, early clubmans, F1200?????

They seem to have been a mainstay of club events in the mid 50s to mid 60s, but this doesn't seem to fit in with the high end sportscar grids seen at historic meetings - 'History isn't what it was' and all that
Very true and what is crazy is you can have a car that was very well known, raced a lot and is original but because it never competed in an International event is not acceptable for historic racing.

Cars like the Rochdale Olympic that was raced by John Anstice-Brown, given he was editor of Motor magazine its exploits are rather well documented, but since he lived on an island (GB) the events he competed in were only National.

But you can take an old road car, that at best only ever appeared in the public carpark at a motor race, and modify it beyond recognition and enter that in historic races.

And if you do have a car of a type that did race Internationally you can change that to a spec. that it never raced in at the time - Lotus 23s with twin-cams (presumably even they will be upgraded to BMWs soon), Lotus Eleven Clubs with FWBs and De-Dions rather than their original Ford sidevalve/solid rear axle....

So much for nostalgia, historics has almost become a contemporary race series but with cars that claim to be old.
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Old 17 May 2012, 09:23 (Ref:3075605)   #8
John Turner
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Well as a well known prepper has said to me, on more than one occasion, you can't undo 50 years of knowledge. However, equally, if you organise your own series you can lay down regs that attempt to draw out the cars that are as close to original as you can get subject to currrent safety requirements and an element of practical realism to ensure that whilst you have sensible policing you don't have to continually resort to time consuming and costly scrutineering. It's what we have been working towards with our FISCAR series. If you guys seriously want a Pre 60 1100 (or up to 1500cc) sports racing series, PM me with some proposals. No promises, mind, but we might as well explore the possibility to establish whether there is sufficient demand or whether ultimately, it's even practical or realistic to pursue it.
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Old 17 May 2012, 10:55 (Ref:3075648)   #9
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Well as a well known prepper has said to me, on more than one occasion, you can't undo 50 years of knowledge. However, equally, if you organise your own series you can lay down regs that attempt to draw out the cars that are as close to original as you can get subject to currrent safety requirements and an element of practical realism to ensure that whilst you have sensible policing you don't have to continually resort to time consuming and costly scrutineering. It's what we have been working towards with our FISCAR series. If you guys seriously want a Pre 60 1100 (or up to 1500cc) sports racing series, PM me with some proposals. No promises, mind, but we might as well explore the possibility to establish whether there is sufficient demand or whether ultimately, it's even practical or realistic to pursue it.
Fair enough.
It's a similar story with other types of cars, like the turbo F1s, there are a number of people who want to run them but they need to get together and present race organisers with a reasonable number of cars.
The main problem I see is persuading people that have fitted larger engines for FIA races (e.g. Lotus Elevens) to fit an 1100, so that they can compete on a level playing field with cars like Elva Mark 1s or Lotus 17s where no one has found an example running a larger engine internationally in period.
There are a lot of eligible cars around and it would make great racing since they look good and the small engines mean the difference between the best and worst engines is less significant which should make for close racing, but, as always, it would take time to persuade a lot of the owners to get involved.
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Old 17 May 2012, 11:11 (Ref:3075650)   #10
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First step is to build a register of suitable cars and their owners. Anyone up for it, or, if individual owners want to contact me by PM with details of what they've got, I'll start one, and we can go from there.
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Old 17 May 2012, 18:41 (Ref:3075833)   #11
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Fair enough.
It's a similar story with other types of cars, like the turbo F1s, there are a number of people who want to run them but they need to get together and present race organisers with a reasonable number of cars.
The main problem I see is persuading people that have fitted larger engines for FIA races (e.g. Lotus Elevens) to fit an 1100, so that they can compete on a level playing field with cars like Elva Mark 1s or Lotus 17s where no one has found an example running a larger engine internationally in period.
There are a lot of eligible cars around and it would make great racing since they look good and the small engines mean the difference between the best and worst engines is less significant which should make for close racing, but, as always, it would take time to persuade a lot of the owners to get involved.

What an GREAT idea !!!!!!!
I am getting a 1954 Kieft Climax ready.
The first car to use the FWA engine, and only in 1100cc form.

I would support the idea to revive 1100 sport racing.
My concept would be to start off with a high profile one off trial race similar to what Roger Wills is doing for early 3 litre F1 cars with the Race of Champions.
If that first race is a success You can grow it into a series bit by bit.
I would be willing to kick start start this and assume the financial risk of that first race whole or in parts if somebody is willing to share this.
The key question is of course with which seriers of promotor to buy that race slot.
HSCC / Masters / Legends / any other suggestions ?

As to Lotus 11 et al that run 1460 FWBs: Thats quite simple.
If 1100cc racing is once again made into the success that it was in the 1950ies, people will want in and will convert their cars back.....

Most conversions just happened because it is not that much fun to be chased by a Lister Jaguar like a hare.
Some series like the Guards Trophy just group sports racers just by age.
Guards SRA class covers a spread from 1100 CC Lotus to Lister Jaguar.
In this case You want to be 1460 cc if that is possible.

Rudolf
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Old 17 May 2012, 18:59 (Ref:3075843)   #12
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Not wishing to hyjack this thread, but as it's related, does anyone recognse this chassis? I think it's either an early clubmans, F1172 /F1200 or 1100cc car. The back axle is BMC (Spridget/Minor), and the mounts look to suit the A series engine.







The back axle modifications are quite distinctive, but in it's current state without any bodywork , and the roll hoop having been removed (along with the rear bodywork support tubes by the look of it) there isn't a lot to go on by way of identifiable features, I know.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 18 May 2012, 11:10 (Ref:3076048)   #13
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OK, so I've had PMs from several of you already, so clearly there is some interest. Peter Morley and I are starting a register. I'm deferring to Peter on the technical side, so what we are looking at is two classes:-

1) 1100cc 'racing' engines (e.g. Climax FWA)

2) 1500cc for 'production' engines (e.g. MG),

How that would pan out in practice I don't know, and of course, the numbers involved will dictate how or whether we can advance this further. So anyone with a suitable car, who simply at this stage wants to be placed on the register, please PM me.

I hasten to add that this is nothing to do with FISCAR* (but it surely is a great template!) since this has happened so quickly that my colleagues will know nothing about it. It is just Peter and I at this stage developing an idea to see where it takes us.

Rudolf, I note all your ideas and hope that you are on board, and your offer is generous indeed. However, you are already thinking high profile events and organisers. Roger's approach was absolutely right for high profile F1 cars but I'm not sure that is where we want to be with this. My own view is to generate a less intense arena providing more of the old fashioned club atmosphere of motor racing. More grass roots, if you like, as we have tried to do with FISCAR. Some competitors just want to enjoy the low key camaraderie and ambience associated with an earlier period. However, what do others think, and remember we are starting now almost from scratch so let's see the level of interest in all this first.

* It is now! - JT (29/5)

Last edited by John Turner; 29 May 2012 at 09:08.
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Old 18 May 2012, 13:11 (Ref:3076104)   #14
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Old 18 May 2012, 17:12 (Ref:3076190)   #15
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in 1100cc I could see Climax, BMC, Ford, Fiat Triumph? engines, in 1500, you'd have BMC, Ford, Porsche etc any others - Alfa, fiat?

perhaps a pre and post '60 class in each size?

I've always thought what the Goodwood revival needs is a race for Lotus seven type cars - S1 & 2, Mallocks, Chevron B1 &2, maybe even taking in some F1200s etc , but then I'm biased!
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