Obscure FJ

[graham allen]

Ebay is a terrible thing - I seem to have bought an obscure Californian FJ when all I wanted was a new toaster.
Anyone heard of a Miller (not THE Miller, but Don Miller of CA) Crosley, 1958. It is a super looking thing, with original, aircraft inspired disc brakes and 850cc ohc engine, but no documents to speak of apart from SVRA use by John Rogers in the 80's.
Period info would be fantastic - I've been told it was made for John Donaldson but that's about it.

[John Turner]

Toaster = racing car! Interesting; perhaps the cockpit gets that hot!

Welcome to 10-Tenths, Graham; hope you get some good, helpful (unlike mine!)responses.

[Rob29]

Don't think FJ had reached America by 1958. It started in italy that year and became international the following year.Was1000/1100cc never 850cc.What you have sounds like something for oval racing.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by graham allen

I seem to have bought an obscure Californian FJ when all I wanted was a new toaster.

This one?

http://www.americandreamcars.com/1958miller.htm

[Rob29]

Curious.F3 at that time was for 500cc mainly rear engined cars.I would like to know where this raced when new.
And $32,000 is a lot for a toaster

[graham allen]

Yep, that's the one but the final price was about half that - still makes for a very dear toaster.
I have heard a bit more about it now - it was built in '58 by Don Miller, an aircraft engineer in California for John Donaldson. Miller built a variety of H Mod sports racers, often Crosley powered and Braje tuned.The F2 Listings site shows 2 FJ cars made but one expert reckons only one was finished.
In 59 the US regs were updated to include the car so it must have been raced somewhere! The running gear makes it interesting - the Crosley engine is OHC and the brakes are discs, both no-no's for Eurpopean FJ. In hyroplanes these motors reputedly ran to 10,000rpm at 14:1 compression ratio, starting life as bomb door motors...
Graham

[John Turner]

Very pretty little car, but what exactly are you going to do with it, Graham, and don't say 'make toast'!?

[david birchall]

Well done Graham, I had been following it on ebay with interest.
The one book on American FJ that I am aware of is Formula Junior Guide, Sports Car Press, 1961 by Harry Morrow a West Coast stalwart of 500cc racing in the fifties and sixties. His book was published in 1961 and just might be available used. It is a small soft bound book and gives a history of the build up to FJ in N.America which would throw doubt on the date of your car-more likely 1959 or 60, I would think. Ther is no mention of a Miller.
He describes how the 500cc Club of America changed it's name to the Formula Racing Association (FRA) to fill the orgaizational void left by the SCCA which had shown no interest in formula cars. To fill the gap left by the lack of a suitable domestic engine MG 1250s and the Crosley 750 engine with the overhead camshaft were permitted under "Appendix B" The SCCA realising they were missing the train announced in 1960 that as the National Body they would recognize only the FIA rules and the Appendix B became a moot point until the SCCA adopted it it the sixties as Formula B.

Road & Track magazine did a large article on FJ in the April 1960 edition but there is no mention of the Miller.

I would suggest you try posting on The Nostalgia Forum at Atlasf1.com as that has a number of US based racing historians and might get you pointed in the right direction at least. I used to race both an Elva and a Gemini front engine FJ in the eighties and they didn't make very good toast either.
David B

[skycafe]

You should find some Miller and Crossley info on dsr.racer.net, and they have a forum also. There is also a Yahoo group for H Modified cars, and there are people there that will know Miller and Crossley info, and can also direct you further.

They sell toasters on ebay, I have never looked at anthing except cars and motorcycles

robert

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by david birchall

I would suggest you try posting on The Nostalgia Forum at Atlasf1.com as that has a number of US based racing historians and might get you pointed in the right direction at least. David B

Welcome Graham.....and ....look ear....

http://forums.autosport.com/showthre...89#post2184989

[John Turner]

That's sailing close to the wind isn't? Given the contents of the posting on the 'other' forum, which doesn't take us any further forward on this thread, I really should pull this post, for obvious reasons. I won't, but please remember what is contained the FAQs. Thanks!

[Rob29]

What does that mean? Are you saying that we cannot cross reference with other forums?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Rob29

What does that mean? Are you saying that we cannot cross reference with other forums?

Amazing that when you take a gentle line, you still get criticised.

It must be pretty obvious from this thread and others all around the 10-tenths website that a flexible view is taken towards references to other websites despite the issues outlined in the FAQs. However, in this case the link was a direct one taking us to an invite to our member to join another website, one of our competitors and in effect an advertisement. I accept that it was made with the best of intentions which is why I took the approach I did.

Now can we please return to the topic of the thread.

[TimD]

Quick note to mention - we have no problem with referencing other sites - especially Atlas Nostalgia, with whom we have a good relationship. Indeed, half "our" regulars already visit TNF on a regular basis. It was the link to a specific post in TNF rather than a thread that became an issue.

Ahem.

Welcome to the forum, Graham. What will be the likely venue for the car's debut?

[graham allen]

Hi good people - I had no idea when I signed up to the forum it was such a political affair, what with all the other forum stuff. Anyway, thanks for all the welcome messages - I am a forum novice and am really surprised by the interest and helpful leads.
I have spoken to Duncan R about the car and he is happy to let in run in FJ under invitation until more history can be unearthed. Tom Churchill has since sent me a list drawn up by Don Miller and Joe Pucket before they died that shows the first 19 cars and only one is listed as F3/4, all the others are sports. It was for Donaldsonin 1960 and blue in colour. That, sadly is as far as I have got so far but I will follow up all the leads and links suggested - thanks again folks.
Graham

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Amazing that when you take a gentle line, you still get criticised.

It must be pretty obvious from this thread and others all around the 10-tenths website that a flexible view is taken towards references to other websites despite the issues outlined in the FAQs. However, in this case the link was a direct one taking us to an invite to our member to join another website, one of our competitors and in effect an advertisement. I accept that it was made with the best of intentions which is why I took the approach I did.

Now can we please return to the topic of the thread.

I find this approach hard to stomach.....we are all enthusiasts and generally speaking, keen to help one another....who gives a rats derrier if I point a newbie with a real need to find out pertinent info on his historic car to a source where he might be able to get help.

As for:

in this case the link was a direct one taking us to an invite to our member to join another website, one of our competitors and in effect an advertisement

I reject absolutely out of hand any assertion that I was advertising a competitor or overtly inviting a member to join another website per se with malicious intentions. Didn't enter my tiny mind and I take offence at the asertion.

We are all adults and enthusiasts and are free to avail ourselves of a wide range of web-based sources of amusement and information such as the wonderful Old Racing Cars site etc etc etc etc

AFAIC the best thing that could happen to www Motor Racing forums is for 10/10ths and AtlasF1 to merge or at least have reciprocal rights or sister site status. In particular, in the historic area where often times one person or one small item of information will have or be the key to a deep automotive mystery.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by TimD

Quick note to mention - we have no problem with referencing other sites - especially Atlas Nostalgia, with whom we have a good relationship. Indeed, half "our" regulars already visit TNF on a regular basis. It was the link to a specific post in TNF rather than a thread that became an issue.

Ahem.

Tim.

just for your edification, I thought I was cutting and pasting a link to a thread in another forum....I went to the header of the thread to cut and paste but obviousle my computer had other ideas.....the fact that I somehow selected a direct post whilst unfortunate is not the end of the world as we know it.

amen.

[David McKinney]

I am one of the many members of both forums. Although both are dedicated to the historic side of the sport they do have distinct differences in content and I for one am quite sure they should remain independent.
On occasion I have thought one inquiry would receive a better response on the other forum, and have PM'd the inquirer with the details. This helps the inquirer without advertising the competitor forum's existence to the whole world.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

I reject absolutely out of hand any assertion that I was advertising a competitor or overtly inviting a member to join another website per se with malicious intentions. Didn't enter my tiny mind.

And if you read my posts in totality, you will see that is how I took it. As a relatively new mod, I rarely react without consulting colleagues. You may be interested to know that a couple of them (not on this forum, I hasten to add) advocated pulling the post. I chose not to and am sorry that my more gentle diplomatic approach caused so much anxst. Tim has clarified matters, I hope, and I think David's approach is a good one. Guys, I'm easy going and that's how I try to moderate.

Now, more than anything, I would like this thread to get back on track. We are all interested in Graham's acquisition and I am also interested in what he intends to do with it.

[graham allen]

Not sure I want to re-enter the fray in case I cause another diplomatic incident...
Update on the Miller - with much help I have spoken to an original owner of a Miller Crosley, John Donaldson. It was described as F3/4 and was bought as unpainted roller in 1960 but not raced until 64 when it crashed after the throttle jammed - John says the car in question looks identical to his apart from roll bar, and wire wheels. He sold back to Don Miller and the trail goes cold again. If this is the only car made it explains why it has no FJ history but from another source I have some names that are meant to date back to a 1958 car: Don Semas - from California or Nevada, plus Lowell Gomes and Terry Mathery???
Graham

[John Turner]

Graham, thanks! Please keep the updates on this interesting Miller, coming; I think it was probably an unknown racing marque, to many of us.

[david birchall]

Maybe his bid was toast but this is on ebay again:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VINTA...QQcmdZViewItem

[Rob29]

Seems bid did not reach reserve price,which seems optimistic? Description is missleading. As previously posted there was no Formula Junior in USA in 1958 ,and this car would not have been eligable for 'European F3', at that time.

[graham allen]

This is what I thought as well - my research before closing the deal got as far as talking to John Donaldson who bought a similar roller in 1960 but raced only once in '64 when he crashed in an open SCCA race, after which the trail goes cold. I could find no record of this or the possible 2nd chassis ever racing as an FJ. I believe the national rules were changed to allow Crosley Millers as 750cc OHC, but again this is described as 850cc.
Although Duncan seems happy to invite the car to compete, and it is very pretty and most probably JD's car, I was increasingly worried that without documented evidence of period FJ use it would be tricky to import and use.
Cold feet and cold toast.
Graham