[Official] Round 06 - Monaco Grand Prix

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by mattt

If he can't overtake, how did he win in China, come second in spain, overtake schumacher at monaco etc etc.

They can all overtake. Maldanado actually made more clean passes than Hamilton did during the race. Never get to see those.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by mattt

That years Toro Rosso wasn't exactly slow. it was a red bull chassis with a ferrari engine.

In recent years the Mclaren has NEVER been the best car imo. (the current regs) Brawn and then Red Bull are the only two who have had that crown.

Its not Hamiltons fault that he started in the McLaren.

If he can't overtake, how did he win in China, come second in spain, overtake schumacher at monaco etc etc.

I wouldn't totally agree. The Mclaren has been the best RACE car at several tracks during all of the past 5 years, unquestionably.

Certainly it hasn't always been the best car all year, everywhere. That has only, maybe, happened once which was with the RBR car last year. Even that is debatable.

The overtaking debate is specious either way. We all know that overtaking is more a function of tyres and DRS than driver ability.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yeah but you've got to give the guy credit, he drove bloody well all weekend, didn't put a foot wrong.

Just two hands.

He did drive bloody well, that's true. It's bizarre he was so much better at Monaco than on 'easier' circuits (the same with Sutil who always looks better than he usually is at Monaco). Then again, maybe Maldonado is improving generally. He's had a reasonable start, I think. He's not flopped like some thought he would. There's a bit of promise there, even if he's not going to be an all-time great.

Originally Posted by deeks6

He's not anywhere near Alonso or Vettel.

109 points, tying with Alonso in his first season would suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by mattt

Its not Hamiltons fault that he started in the McLaren.

It is Hamilton's fault for being so good and therefore entering with a top team. He must be chastised for this at every opportunity!

[gttouring]

still cracking race- good that Petrov wasn't broken (i saw the race a week late- i have been avoiding 10-10ths since)
what a chase the top three
the rules to allow for work on the car like changing tires etc...i think don't really help Lewis should have been brought in for that rear wing as soon as a marshal saw it.

great Monaco race

[Born Racer]

Watch the incident at the hairpin again: Massa turns in significantly too early for the corner (trying to block Hamilton). He is at a strange angle to be taking a normal line through that corner before entry, and then he even loses something off the front of his car on the Red Bull in front, so determined is he to squeeze Hamilton.

[strider]

Didn't Massa have a problem with Webber being outside him so he had nowhere to go? I've deleted the copy of the race I had, so I'm just asking the question?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by strider

Didn't Massa have a problem with Webber being outside him so he had nowhere to go? I've deleted the copy of the race I had, so I'm just asking the question?

Massa turned to avoid the rear of Webber, who had gone very wide at the hairpin. You could almost say that Massa had no choice but to go to the inside of Webber in order to avoid hitting the rear of him. He would have certainly hit the back of Webber had he not done so. Hamilton's front wheels were only just alongside Massa's rear wheels at the point where Massa turned in (18 seconds on vid). Hamilton, at that point, should have taken avoiding action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oemx...eature=related

[luke g28]

By that point it was too late to take avoiding action, he was already committed, under maximum braking you can't just brake a bit harder and back off.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by luke g28

By that point it was too late to take avoiding action, he was already committed, under maximum braking you can't just brake a bit harder and back off.

Look at the vid. Massa was slowing down faster than Hamilton at that point. Who is braking hardest?

In fact the more I look at that vid the more convinced I am that Hamilton ruined Massa's chance of going up the inside of Webber!

[Born Racer]

It didn't look like Massa planned to overtake Webber though. Webber runs a bit wide and Massa possibly decided late to go for it on Webber. Or possibly to block Hamilton..

I don't think he was going to collide with Mark.

Originally Posted by luke g28

By that point it was too late to take avoiding action, he was already committed, under maximum braking you can't just brake a bit harder and back off.

You'd be amazed how often this simple bit of physics gets ignored.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

It didn't look like Massa planned to overtake Webber though.

No it didn't. But that move was probably more 'on' than Hamilton's.

Whatever anyone thinks about either of Hamilton's moves, he'll still be going to the next race with 'history'.

[Born Racer]

It was worse than the move on Maldonado, granted.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Massa turned to avoid the rear of Webber, who had gone very wide at the hairpin. You could almost say that Massa had no choice but to go to the inside of Webber in order to avoid hitting the rear of him. He would have certainly hit the back of Webber had he not done so. Hamilton's front wheels were only just alongside Massa's rear wheels at the point where Massa turned in (18 seconds on vid). Hamilton, at that point, should have taken avoiding action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Oemx...eature=related

I have to disagree with you.....

At 5 seconds in (also 18 seconds in), Massa is well behind Webber and Hamiltons front wing is level with Massa's rear tyre. At 6 seconds in (also 18 seconds in), Massa is certainly not avoiding Webber but shutting the door on Hamilton, who has his front wing mid-ships alongside Massa. At 9 seconds in Massa has cut in front of Hamilton. At 12 seconds, Massa is way to far behind to be making a move on Webber, but completing his chop on Hamilton, who has had to put his inside wheels (at least his inside front) over the kerb - also seen from the other camera angle at 22 seconds.

I couldn't agree that Massa had no choice but to avoid Webber by turning inside him - unless his approach to the corner was too fast to avoid hitting Webber if he followed him on the same line. At 22 seconds in it looks like Massa hit Webber anyway - see this video also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8dG9...eature=related, which can only be Massa's error. In fact that contact caused the damage to his front wing which probably put him off in the tunnel.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Having seen the various bits of footage posted here, on YouTube and reruns, I think Massa and Hamilton are equally at fault; they are both going for the the same space. As Massa tries to prevent Hamilton, Hamilton is right up over the rumble strip; result, no more room for either of them.

[Marbot]

The way I see it on the videos is that Massa had no choice but to turn in to avoid hitting Webber. Webber was very wide and it may have also looked to Massa like an opportunity to go up the inside of him (whether or not that move would have come off, we'll never know). Hamilton went to go up the inside of Massa from too far back, and Massa was never as wide as Webber was. Massa went for the apex, so did Hamilton. Only one of them was going to win the corner. Hamilton shoved the nose of Massa's car into the rear of Webber's because at that point he was preventing Massa from following his chosen path (the kerb). Penalty.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The way I see it on the videos is that Massa had no choice but to turn in to avoid hitting Webber. Webber was very wide and it may have also looked to Massa like an opportunity to go up the inside of him (whether or not that move would have come off, we'll never know). Hamilton went to go up the inside of Massa from too far back, and Massa was never as wide as Webber was. Massa went for the apex, so did Hamilton. Only one of them was going to win the corner. Hamilton shoved the nose of Massa's car into the rear of Webber's because at that point he was preventing Massa from following his chosen path (the kerb). Penalty.

I agree with that.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The way I see it on the videos is that Massa had no choice but to turn in to avoid hitting Webber.

I must have missed the fact that his brake pedal wasn't working, so he could ONLY steer to avoid collision.........

Originally Posted by Marbot

Webber was very wide and it may have also looked to Massa like an opportunity to go up the inside of him (whether or not that move would have come off, we'll never know).

To me it is quite clear that the only possible result of Massa's attempted overtake on Webber (if that is what his move was - turning into the apex 5 metres or more early than normal) is that with Webber's "wide in, tight out" line, Massa would have T-boned Webber just after he (Massa) had apexed - with or without Hamilton being present.