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Old 9 Oct 2021, 07:48 (Ref:4077578)   #2226
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It's a good job we don't have those cars from 81-82 with no suspension movement, those things were lethal. That is one thing F1 has definitely learnt from
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Old 9 Oct 2021, 23:03 (Ref:4077675)   #2227
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Few posts missing the point of my comment in comment #2197 about the cars being less darty and more clumsy than previous F1 generations.

Absolutely not JUST about the weight, nor JUST about the wheelbase, nor JUST about the aero but rather a combination of all those things.

In medium-fast corners, where the aero is doing its thing best, the current cars are pretty impressive but in lower speed corners, on bumpier street circuits as a couple of examples, the current cars are clumsy in comparison to previous iterations, less darty, more cumbersome.

That was the point I was making - to me it's a great shame that F1 has lost that "edge" the cars always had in those situations and it would be great to see it back but alas I think it's unlikely.
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Old 9 Oct 2021, 23:36 (Ref:4077679)   #2228
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The irony is, that it’s the slower corners where the fans usually get to see the cars close up because the faster corners either have limited viewing or no viewing for safety reasons.

Heavier cars + longer wheelbase + higher COG is why the cars look less darty and nimble than the older generation.

Also the teams moan about bodywork changes causing them “problems” is only a problem because they have basically shrunk the rear of the car down so much it’s like they are wearing a corset. There is ACRES of packaging room above the floor plan, it’s just the aerodynamics guys don’t want it used for that purpose as it would upset the airflow at the rear.
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Old 9 Oct 2021, 23:53 (Ref:4077683)   #2229
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The irony is, that it’s the slower corners where the fans usually get to see the cars close up because the faster corners either have limited viewing or no viewing for safety reasons.
This for me. Not a fan of sitting along a straight. Much prefer the entry or exits of corners to see the cars move around a bit. Give me a good right to left to right chicane and really get to see these cars move around.

though undecided if i like or dislike whether or not these current F1 cars can attack theae complexes at full throttle or not.

To see how agile these cars are at speed is quite something. That they are on rails makea it more impressive.
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Old 10 Oct 2021, 00:19 (Ref:4077692)   #2230
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That they are on rails makes it more impressive.
That is exactly what a lot fans dislike, they want to see a driver absolutely on the edge of control and the car moving all over the place.
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Old 10 Oct 2021, 00:33 (Ref:4077694)   #2231
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Few posts missing the point of my comment in comment #2197 about the cars being less darty and more clumsy than previous F1 generations.

Absolutely not JUST about the weight, nor JUST about the wheelbase, nor JUST about the aero but rather a combination of all those things.

In medium-fast corners, where the aero is doing its thing best, the current cars are pretty impressive but in lower speed corners, on bumpier street circuits as a couple of examples, the current cars are clumsy in comparison to previous iterations, less darty, more cumbersome.

That was the point I was making - to me it's a great shame that F1 has lost that "edge" the cars always had in those situations and it would be great to see it back but alas I think it's unlikely.
Unfortunately you are right, less dependence on aero is the only way to get back to that. How far back was it when you last saw the sort of car behaviour you describe? When was the last time you saw a car get out of shape under brakes because there was a car beside trying to out brake him? If an engineer saw that happening he would instantly spend any amount of money to make sure that car stayed straight. I think it was Ross Brawn who said that F1 has become an engineering wankfest and not a sporting contest as it once was. Also it must be said that some of the common problems we as fans see are not what they think they are and the whole lot spirals into the realms of urban myths. Mans pursuit of perfection has ensured F1 has gone down this path.
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Old 10 Oct 2021, 13:42 (Ref:4077787)   #2232
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Few posts missing the point of my comment in comment #2197 about the cars being less darty and more clumsy than previous F1 generations.

Absolutely not JUST about the weight, nor JUST about the wheelbase, nor JUST about the aero but rather a combination of all those things.

In medium-fast corners, where the aero is doing its thing best, the current cars are pretty impressive but in lower speed corners, on bumpier street circuits as a couple of examples, the current cars are clumsy in comparison to previous iterations, less darty, more cumbersome.

That was the point I was making - to me it's a great shame that F1 has lost that "edge" the cars always had in those situations and it would be great to see it back but alas I think it's unlikely.

That's what I thought, it's a combination of all those things which is why I asked, wouldn't the long wheelbase also be a factor, as well as the weight?
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Old 10 Oct 2021, 22:33 (Ref:4077912)   #2233
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How to fix F1 - give us tyres that mean some will try and go a full race on one set.
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 05:44 (Ref:4077950)   #2234
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That's what I thought, it's a combination of all those things which is why I asked, wouldn't the long wheelbase also be a factor, as well as the weight?
Why is the static weight a factor when the aero loaded race weight is so large?
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 09:08 (Ref:4077980)   #2235
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Why is the static weight a factor when the aero loaded race weight is so large?

The term weight is being used here instead of mass.
Downforce is a force not a unit of weight
The static weight becomes dynamic (or Kinetic force) when the car is in motion and is tending to keep pushing the car in an existing direction.
Downforce provides extra traction to allow other forces to be used to overcome that Kinetic force.
Ipso facto Aero generated downforce actually is the reason that F1 cars have the ability to translate motive power into acceleration, braking into deceleration or steering forces into cornering performance at high g levels.
But then it,s just about eighty years since I did high school physics
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 09:32 (Ref:4077987)   #2236
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It's a tricky subject. Personally I don't think weight and mass is too much of a factor on the racing as the downforce. But this has been an interesting subject nonetheless. Learn something new all the time.
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 16:26 (Ref:4078052)   #2237
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Why is the static weight a factor when the aero loaded race weight is so large?

Weight, or more accurately mass, affects the movement of the car on all axes: vertical, longitudinal and lateral. Downforce/lift, is a downwards force which is produced by aero and allows the car to travel faster by increasing the vertical force on the tires, thus creating more grip. The mass is a factor because increasing the mass gives you extra "push" on the tires, but it also creates slower acceleration, longer braking distances and slower cornering.
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 17:21 (Ref:4078070)   #2238
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Yes, it is the mass that you have to accelerate (faster, braking, or change of direction).
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Old 11 Oct 2021, 21:45 (Ref:4078133)   #2239
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Yes, it is the mass that you have to accelerate (faster, braking, or change of direction).
That's Jochen for you!
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 00:22 (Ref:4078137)   #2240
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80 year old physics classes aside the term "weight" is the simplist term to describe the effect of the load that is added to the tyre contact patch which in turn takes away the desired spectacle from the spectator POV for a lot of us. Engineering in F1 has actively sought to prevent the car moving about as in times past and it ain't going to come back if engineers can prevent it.
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 00:42 (Ref:4078141)   #2241
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That's Jochen for you!
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Old 12 Oct 2021, 00:49 (Ref:4078143)   #2242
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80 year old physics classes aside the term "weight" is the simplist term to describe the effect of the load that is added to the tyre contact patch which in turn takes away the desired spectacle from the spectator POV for a lot of us. Engineering in F1 has actively sought to prevent the car moving about as in times past and it ain't going to come back if engineers can prevent it.
The weight is the force of gravity on the mass. The grip of the tyres is aided by this force, and as you say, not as important as the additional downforce from aero nowadays.

The mass is what you have to move around. The greater the mass the more effort it is to make it accelerate (in any direction).

(All as you know )
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 10:50 (Ref:4078415)   #2243
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The weight is the force of gravity on the mass. The grip of the tyres is aided by this force, and as you say, not as important as the additional downforce from aero nowadays.

The mass is what you have to move around. The greater the mass the more effort it is to make it accelerate (in any direction).

(All as you know )
...and the greater the downforce needed to stick it to the track to counteract the amount of centrifugal force generated by said mass going around a corner.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 11:47 (Ref:4078419)   #2244
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The centripetal force of the tyres increases with weight. In a simple model this force is linear to the weight through the friction of the tyres. The force required to accelerate the car round the corner is also linear to mass. So, the mass is irrelevant. This is the case for a vehicle without downforce.

In a similar way the mass of a body does not effect how quickly it orbits around the sun. A pea or the Earth orbit’s the sun in one year if both 1 Astronomical Unit from the Sun.

If you throw in downforce then the perfect balance between the in the physics which means mass is irrelevant doesn’t hold. A car with downforce does have a dependency with mass. I find this dynamic quite interesting.

Also tyres friction coefficient isn’t necessarily linear to mass.

I’ve taken Stephen Hawkins’ advice and tried to wire without using an equation!
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 07:39 (Ref:4078548)   #2245
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The future

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motors...920a36727a14f3
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 11:59 (Ref:4078578)   #2246
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I'm not sure that this article actually says anything really, does it?
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 12:12 (Ref:4078579)   #2247
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It’s just Vettel’s views that’s all. Not sure how accurate he is, but it shows once again how big a heart the guy has. But nothing really more than that
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Old 15 Oct 2021, 23:32 (Ref:4078655)   #2248
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Bang on here: other than the exciting bit.

“But the current regulations, I think they‘re very exciting, the (hybrid) engine is super efficient, but it’s useless.
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Old 16 Oct 2021, 11:26 (Ref:4078695)   #2249
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Bang on here: other than the exciting bit.

“But the current regulations, I think they‘re very exciting, the (hybrid) engine is super efficient, but it’s useless.
That's an interesting quote from Vettel! Super efficient but useless!!

Are the engines really as much use as a glass hammer or an ashtray on a motorbike?
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Old 16 Oct 2021, 17:20 (Ref:4078741)   #2250
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That's an interesting quote from Vettel! Super efficient but useless!!

Are the engines really as much use as a glass hammer or an ashtray on a motorbike?

He goes on to say: “It’s not going to be an engine formula that you will buy on the road in two years when you decide to buy a new car, for example.''
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