Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 May 2019, 12:36 (Ref:3902990)   #76
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
^ wot he said. Since when is a customer not entitled to express dissatisfaction when they don't get value for their money.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2019, 15:35 (Ref:3903512)   #77
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,380
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Sadly... I personally think that real understanding of things like this is generally outside of the realm of the vast majority of fans.

Not that they can't understand, but that the topic is complex and generally they don't have the technical skills or time to extract and analyse the information themselves. For most of us, the primary method is to rely upon someone else to do that analysis for us and provide some type of aggregated and (hopefully) informed opinion.
while i dont think you are wrong in this, im also not sure that overtly technical answers yield any better explanations then the more easily observable metrics....just longer ones really.

anyways, 3 Honda powered cars in the points and 1 just outside and only 1 Renault powered car despite their upgrade.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 13 May 2019, 16:44 (Ref:3903518)   #78
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,150
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
while i dont think you are wrong in this, im also not sure that overtly technical answers yield any better explanations then the more easily observable metrics....just longer ones really.

anyways, 3 Honda powered cars in the points and 1 just outside and only 1 Renault powered car despite their upgrade.
I think the real problem is that while we are not yet at power unit parity, it is much closer than people suspect. So its hard to extract and measure the difference on something that is both part of a larger puzzle and likely to have smallish measurable differences. That seems like a bold statement given the real dominance of the Mercedes power unit, but these days I attribute the Mercedes dominance to factors beyond than that of "just" their power unit (which is still the best). Mercedes has taken strength to build more strength and has moved on to crush opposition on all fronts.

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 30 Jun 2019, 21:49 (Ref:3915230)   #79
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,150
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Congratulations to Honda for their first win in F1 since 2006. I suspect many felt it would not happen given the disastrous return with McLaren, but lots of hard work and commitment to success has paid off.

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 01:22 (Ref:3915254)   #80
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,921
Tourer has a real shot at the podium!Tourer has a real shot at the podium!Tourer has a real shot at the podium!Tourer has a real shot at the podium!
It's good see isn't it?

The other big thing that has happened since the disastrous return with McLaren has been the change of key personnel at Honda to bring back people from the glory days of the racing program - people who understand racing and what is needed.

To me, that is the key change that Honda made 18 odd months ago and the results are starting to become evident now. They're not all the way there yet but they are definitely on an upward curve.
Tourer is offline  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 03:09 (Ref:3915263)   #81
Adam43
14th
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 33,387
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Why Don't You Just Switch Off Your Television Set and Go Out and Do Something Less Boring Instead?
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 05:37 (Ref:3915270)   #82
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 45,131
GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!GTRMagic is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.
It took a structural change at McLaren to get here too, with some help from the WEC Guru....
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
Think Tank.. Creative Inertia..
Always Be Closing.. Telling's Not Selling..
Perpetuate The Cycle.. GTS - Google That Stuff..
Manufacturing Intellect.. My endless lunch break starts now..
Motion Creates Emotion..
Take control of your journey..
Savings. Service. Satisfaction..
You cannot follow fake and expect to find real..
Give me health and strength, we'll steal the rest..
It's easier to throw rocks at a house than to build one..
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 22:21 (Ref:3915422)   #83
greentrumpet
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 101
greentrumpet should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.
Totally agree, but feel this could never happen once they took Alonso back.
greentrumpet is offline  
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 22:55 (Ref:3915427)   #84
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,380
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Congrats to Honda but this is Max's win...amazing what a hungry driver can do!
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 23:24 (Ref:3915430)   #85
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,150
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
Congrats to Honda but this is Max's win...amazing what a hungry driver can do!
Not taking anything away from Max, but... seriously? Clearly the other drivers are just not trying hard enough!

This win is down to... Max, Red Bull Racing and Honda F1. Take any away from that list and it wouldn't have happened.

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 1 Jul 2019, 23:55 (Ref:3915432)   #86
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,380
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
its sports...one person is always trying harder, wants it more. thats not the same as saying the others were not trying, it just means that effort/desire is not equal.

and in this case you take that driver out of that combination and the car-engine finishes a lap down.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2019, 00:29 (Ref:3915434)   #87
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,150
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
its sports...one person is always trying harder, wants it more. thats not the same as saying the others were not trying, it just means that effort/desire is not equal.
Wow! You would make a great motivational speaker for the team members. That would be quite the victory speech for back at HQ. I would agree it's not equal. Given the balance of staff at RBR and Honda working on this... Who has put forth more blood sweat and tears? Max or the entire bulk of the rest of the combined organization? I am utterly gobsmacked by your line of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
and in this case you take that driver out of that combination and the car-engine finishes a lap down.
That applies to anything. For example, take that chassis, engine and driver and drop them into a substandard team... he could finish a lap down. Rinse and repeat with other components. I will say that Honda has been the weak link (and maybe a bit the Red Bull chassis) so far, but they have won a race. It wasn't a rain race, the top drivers/teams didn't retire, etc. It was a legitimate win and that was significant.

If Max is really the key here, why hasn't he won every race so far? Was he just not hungry enough earlier this year?

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2019, 16:28 (Ref:3915517)   #88
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,380
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Wow! You would make a great motivational speaker for the team members. That would be quite the victory speech for back at HQ. I would agree it's not equal. Given the balance of staff at RBR and Honda working on this... Who has put forth more blood sweat and tears? Max or the entire bulk of the rest of the combined organization? I am utterly gobsmacked by your line of thinking.
well im not approaching this as a zero sum game. fair enough if you think i have a bias towards drivers (i do) rather than the people working back at the factory but just because i think the driver deserves more of the credit that doesn't diminish what i think anyone else did. i can celebrate someone without the need to put the other side of the equation down.

after all these years i would hope that has shown through on my posts...maybe not though.

anyways, my early point was more about how unusual it is to see what everyone essentially considers an inferior car and engine win a race, both RB and Honda have said its too early in their partnership to be looking at wins and certainly not wins based on merit, the anti stall kicking in, the issue with tires during the first stint but still ran longer to give him more fresh laps on the hards, issue with the energy recovery unit/clipping, thought he was losing power, sensor issue, when he kept the Racing Point ahead of him in order to hit the DRS activation which he then used after quickly passing the RP to get closer to Bottas(? i think it was)....is the point i am making really that unusual?

so yeah i really do think he ran a brilliant race and showed a level of motivation, desire, effort (or whatever that intangible quality is that great performances exhibit) that we dont see very often. a driver performance worthy of serious recognition and i think by years end this will be considered the drive of the season.

imo Max drove well around the limitations of his ride.

agree to disagree but for me i think Max deserves the lions share of the credit for this win...thats not a slight on Honda but rather just appreciation on my part of a very special athletic performance.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2019, 18:15 (Ref:3915531)   #89
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,150
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
well im not approaching this as a zero sum game. fair enough if you think i have a bias towards drivers (i do) rather than the people working back at the factory but just because i think the driver deserves more of the credit that doesn't diminish what i think anyone else did.
I think it's absolutely correct to call out kudos to one or more individuals or groups. But I think it's a loosing proposition to try to rank credit in situations like this. Such as X deserves more credit than Y. Because it inherently is diminishing in nature. Especially when it should be a happy time for both X and Y.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i can celebrate someone without the need to put the other side of the equation down.
My criticism (which we probably have talked to death at this point) is I felt that is not what you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
after all these years i would hope that has shown through on my posts...maybe not though.
Agree. My response was because it seemed out of character. I just found it odd for you to downplay the positive Honda success story in the Honda thread. But people can post whatever they want. I am not the forum police.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
anyways, my early point was more about how unusual it is to see what everyone essentially considers an inferior car and engine win a race, both RB and Honda have said its too early in their partnership to be looking at wins and certainly not wins based on merit, the anti stall kicking in, the issue with tires during the first stint but still ran longer to give him more fresh laps on the hards, issue with the energy recovery unit/clipping, thought he was losing power, sensor issue, when he kept the Racing Point ahead of him in order to hit the DRS activation which he then used after quickly passing the RP to get closer to Bottas(? i think it was)....is the point i am making really that unusual?
It's easy to just see the driver in this equation. The focus on Sunday is on him. And I am taking absolutely NOTHING away from Max here. But beware of discounting the work by the team as a whole to get to this point. Not to mention work during the race weekend. In the end, I have no doubt Max is patting himself on the back (rightly so), but would say he couldn't have done it without the rest of the team. Note... on the podium he walked out and pointed to the Honda badge on his drivers suit first thing. He was saying "thank you". He could have left the platitudes for later once off the podium, but I assume he felt is was the right thing to do at that moment vs. trying to soak up all the glory for himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
agree to disagree but for me i think Max deserves the lions share of the credit for this win...thats not a slight on Honda but rather just appreciation on my part of a very special athletic performance.
We can agree to disagree. I am not sure why you feel the need apportion credit as a way to call out Max's contribution. Or maybe I just feel it's odd to do so in the Honda thread. But I am repeating myself

Max doesn't require an epic drive in a "bad" car so as to make the story great. I think the fact that he wasn't driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes makes the point you are trying to make. I think his drive can be considered great regardless of what he was driving. There is also apples to oranges in the comparison. If it was me... and you want to pump up Max via comparison to something or someone... I might note that Max destroyed his teammate in the same car. That is a more apples to apples comment.

Check out how Gasly fits in the list of winners and losers...
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...tzwPlCNy9.html

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 2 Jul 2019, 19:42 (Ref:3915540)   #90
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,380
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
in fairness, when i look back on this thread i see many posts about whether or not Honda deserve more or less credit or more or less blame...aside from ranking things being inherent in sports i would also say ranking Honda's performance (regardless of whether its comparing them to their competitors or comparing their input relative to its partners) is inherent to this thread.

so i do not agree that suggesting one part of the equation was more important than another part of the equation (and only for the purpose of describing this one race) is out of character for this thread.

of course i could be wrong about that so perhaps these posts could be moved to another thread because i do feel like there are some other interesting questions here...

beyond the normal team vs individual sport question, are there drives you, me, anyone else thinks are wins which come down more for driver, down to the machinery, or is it always a more equal combination of all the partners.

i imagine there are a great number of examples to support all positions here and maybe some great races of the past which we can call attention to?
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
What shall we use to fill the empty spaces, where waves of hunger roar?
Shall we set out across the sea of faces in search of more and more applause?
Shall we buy a new guitar? Shall we drive a more powerful car?
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HONDA CIVIC 2013 vs HONDA ACCORD 2000 iceman-1987 WTCC & European Touring Car Series 8 27 Mar 2013 09:29
Will BAR-Honda change to just "Honda"? Born Racer Formula One 16 29 Dec 2005 20:41
Hayden to Honda GP, B Bostrom to US Honda - Confirmed racer69 Bike Racing 6 16 Sep 2002 04:24
Did Honda go into hibernation ? Super Tourer WTCC & European Touring Car Series 1 3 May 2000 16:42
"Honda" Integra Type R Mr.S WTCC & European Touring Car Series 8 30 Mar 2000 01:53


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 20:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.