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Old 14 May 2019, 09:07 (Ref:3903656)   #16
Kempi
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Did you adjust this for the changed points scheme? In 2004 2nd place points were only 60% of the first place points, in 2019 it is 72%.
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Old 14 May 2019, 09:58 (Ref:3903663)   #17
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I stand by what I've said many times: we collectively should be relishing the fact that there's one team who are currently getting everything right, at every level. Forcing them to get things wrong in the interests of some biased view that F1 is now less interesting than it used to be* is likely to make the money behind the team to leave, and others will follow them, and then F1 won't be F1 any more...
Personally I reckon this is a false argument that is dragged into the discussion far too often.

I almost never see people say that competition used to be much closer. Just that having it closer would make F1 more interesting NOW. Making it live up to it's potential more in a world where a lot more things fight for people's attention and interest.
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:40 (Ref:3903680)   #18
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Did you adjust this for the changed points scheme? In 2004 2nd place points were only 60% of the first place points, in 2019 it is 72%.
Not into that much detail. Any attempts to apply current points systems onto previous results will always have flaws, and I accept that this exists in my post regarding the level of dominance.

My point was more that the current Mercedes dominance is not that exceptional, when you compare even just the last 20 years of F1. But it does appear to be more consistent, than the apparent erratic level of advantage that Ferrari had. 6 years of dominance is not unprecedented though, as was being claimed.
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Old 14 May 2019, 12:03 (Ref:3903684)   #19
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As I posted on another thread (indicating that there is indeed overlap with other discussions) I think that two issues get conflated here.

Issue 1:
Three teams are miles ahead of the rest. This is a problem for the sport and is down to money, so sorting that out requires radical action on budgets and revenue distribution.

Issue 2:
Of the three top teams, Mercedes is dominant. This isn't a problem with/for/of the sport, it is a problem with/of/for Ferrari and Red Bull. There is nothing stopping those two teams competing with Mercedes other than their own differing level of competence in pretty much every aspect of racing an F1 car.

I am absolutely, totally opposed to punishing success. Mercedes are an awesome, brilliant, incredible sporting force, due nothing but applause and celebration. It is a privilege to watch them. It's not their fault Ferrari and Red Bull can't keep up (metaphorically and literally). The relative flaws of Mercedes' competitors should not be compensated for by holding back the team which has done and continues to do a better job.
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Old 14 May 2019, 12:15 (Ref:3903686)   #20
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Out side the top three the rest (excluding Williams) are very close together and there seems to be a different team at the top each race with a second or so covering that section of the grid. If we could get all teams that close together then we should have some interesting races.
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Old 14 May 2019, 12:17 (Ref:3903688)   #21
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Personally I reckon this is a false argument that is dragged into the discussion far too often.

I almost never see people say that competition used to be much closer. Just that having it closer would make F1 more interesting NOW. Making it live up to it's potential more in a world where a lot more things fight for people's attention and interest.
Every single survey about F1 in recent years has resulted in "bring back overtaking" and "it was better in the year XXXX" without any hard facts or statistics to back up the assertions. Hell, we ended up with DRS as a response to endless "there isn't enough overtaking" comments in the media.

Your latter comment is a salient point, though: lots of things in the worlds of the arts, entertainments and sport are fighting for people's attention, interest and money. Consumers of such things have decreasing attention spans, perhaps in part because there's so much stuff vying for their attention. F1 races are long, the season is long, and it isn't necessarily going to deliver thunderingly exciting entertainment every minute of every race in every year...

So for the sake of argument: what is the "potential" of Formula 1?

Last edited by Greem; 14 May 2019 at 12:17. Reason: speeling mistuke
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Old 14 May 2019, 13:24 (Ref:3903695)   #22
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Not into that much detail. Any attempts to apply current points systems onto previous results will always have flaws, and I accept that this exists in my post regarding the level of dominance.

My point was more that the current Mercedes dominance is not that exceptional, when you compare even just the last 20 years of F1. But it does appear to be more consistent, than the apparent erratic level of advantage that Ferrari had. 6 years of dominance is not unprecedented though, as was being claimed.
Thanks. I agree it would be flawed, was just asking for better understanding.

Mercedes is passing Ferrari's level of dominance now. Ferrari's dominance was considered "worse" because they clearly favored one driver, other than Mercedes. Even though Mercedes uses team orders as ruthlessly as Ferrari back then, Mercedes is looked at a little more leniently for it nowadays because they let the drivers somewhat race.

During the MSC era the regulating body tried to do more about Ferrari's dominance, especially when they moved to the "no change of tires" rule. That is missing right now which might mean that Mercedes will stay dominant longer. But as I said back then (supported by team bias ), I agree with those now that say the other teams need to get their act together instead of crying for curbing Mercedes. It is a sport and a competition. Those who do their job better than others should reap the benefits.
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Old 14 May 2019, 13:38 (Ref:3903696)   #23
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So for the sake of argument: what is the "potential" of Formula 1?
Writing this post as thoughts come to mind - so please forgive any ramblings.

One thing that has been raised has been the closeness or competitiveness of the middle runners. Surely this shows that the current F1 regime can produce healthy competition and close racing. The outliers are at the very back, and the front of the grid. How could this closeness be brought to the front of the grid?

One sport that comes to mind:
A sport where a controlled number of teams compete for a league title each year,
that has no relegation or promotion,
where certain teams have had dominant periods,
NFL.

Could F1 learn something from the NFL?

Fund distribution. All teams in the NFL receive an equal allocation from the league. This could be replicated in F1.

Separate divisions/conferences. Splitting teams up into small groups may not be feasible, but dividing the teams into two conferences may be possible? Imagine a scenario where race weekends alternate between two sets of teams. Teams would have less races per year, reducing the fatigue. More venues could host races. Locations could even hold more than one race a season.
Once the two conferences have reached their conclusion, a final round would see the top three teams from each conference compete for the title(s).

Draft. The driver roster is a lot smaller in F1 than NFL, but I still think there is scope here. At the end of each season, teams are not able to retain their drivers. All drivers who are eligible for F1 (including current drivers and rookies) are available for selection. The teams then receive draft picks based on their previous season's record. So currently the draft would be in two rounds, with Williams having first pick. This could even be expanded in the terms of 3-car teams, with the smaller grids at each event. An additional factor would be the knowledge of other cars that may be taken by drivers to other teams.

All just a pipe-dream, but if F1 is going to change significantly, then extreme measures must be at least put on the table.
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