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Old 15 May 2019, 13:29 (Ref:3903932)   #3526
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
So I suggest we close this thread since to disagree with the majority is just not correct.
Alternatively, don't read and don't post in it and let the people who don't have all the answers yet have a chance to find out for themselves?
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:33 (Ref:3903936)   #3527
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Sadly I can't do that since as a mod I have to make sure the posters are playing nicely. And when someone posts something that makes my eyes bleed I comment. You may not like it and frankly you've taken the thread off course so I suggest you back away.
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:41 (Ref:3903937)   #3528
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You still haven't answered any of my previous questions, which are very much related to the subject at hand. crmalcom also posed an interesting question that you ignored. So once again, what is your problem with these 'young people' that seemingly have no idea? And where are they?
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:46 (Ref:3903939)   #3529
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No. If someone expresses an opinion then that's fine. But to dismiss something with words such as "yawn" etc. is purile.
Ah - I hadn't picked up on the comment about young people not understanding being linked to a 'yawn'. Which leads me to ask also - what about someone's attitude to a series makes it an age matter?

IMO, the age of an individual is irrelevant when it comes to the perceived quality of an opinion, other than the fact that if the only individuals who are interested in a sport are more elderly, then the sport will eventually die with its supporters.

Future Rule Changes have to strike the balance between the sport's history, establishing a legacy, and building for future sustainment. One of those must surely then look at what younger fans want from their sporting entertainment. To dismiss the younger audience because of a less reasoned approach to comment only increases the divide between those who have been connected to the sport for a while, and the potential future supporter.
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:51 (Ref:3903941)   #3530
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I like hearing from Brundle because it's clear he cares about the sport and wants to make it better, so will offer constructive views on how to do it. Certainly one of the most rounded people in the paddock, not afraid to speak his mind against anyone and I think he has admitted it is easier to appreciate your career in F1 once you retire
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:55 (Ref:3903944)   #3531
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Originally Posted by ApexTurtle View Post
Then I will ask again, and this is probably the final time, what do those people know about what F1 'should' be? What qualifies them as having an opinion worth sharing?
So you listen to journalists and don't consider them capable of forming a rational and possibly correct analysis of the current state of Formula 1? Yet all we see repeated in this thread is cost caps, not a return to proper cars with proper engines.

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I find this a strange point. What leads you to think that young people have no grasp - is it because the general opinion of more youthful fans (or who would like to be fans) have a different opinion on what F1 should be to your own?
I did provide an answer to this point.

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1,133 posts (currently) in a thread titled 'How to fix F1' would suggest that their is a significant proportion of individuals who think it needs fixing - ergo what F1 is today is not what most feel it should be.
Indeed and in and of itself that is good. However none of the popular ideas go far enough and most miss the point that the cars are just not exciting to watch, nor are the artifical aids making them more so.


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I'm fairly confident that all of those who would like to see F1 change include people from all age brackets.
Again yes indeed Midgetman is almost as old as me and he has a different opinion to me.


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Or is it more a case of - those who think F1 today is what the sport should be about tend to be more mature?
Doubtful.

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You still haven't answered any of my previous questions, which are very much related to the subject at hand. crmalcom also posed an interesting question that you ignored. So once again, what is your problem with these 'young people' that seemingly have no idea? And where are they?
See above.

Incidentally this is the start of the age issue:

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I was somewhat with him until he started to wax lyrical about the 'good old times' like so many old dudes do. Yaaaawn.

Last edited by Peter Mallett; 15 May 2019 at 14:04.
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Old 15 May 2019, 14:18 (Ref:3903957)   #3532
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Herein lies the problem. It's boring because young people appear to have no grasp of what this sport is supposed to be about. As evidenced by the above disparaging remark. I note the remark has no actual response other than childishness.

Fact is, whether you like it or not Brundle, Needell etc. know what racing is about and their thoughts and opinions are far more important than some anonymous keyboard warrior.
Young people have other things to entertain themselves with, primarily computer games. I play computer games myself. They are good fun because you as a player, are immersed in the game as the main game character, or characters and are given tasks to perform and workout within the game. With motorsport, you are passive, watching from the outside.

The immersion from motorsport, comes from a knowlege and understanding of the sport, that needs to be acquired and a lot of that can seem very dry, compared to a computer game. To follow any form of motorsport, one also has to have some technical understanding, of what's behind it and compared to a computer game, tech stuff can be very boring.

The other big turn off, for young people, will be the lack of any noticeable competition. Seeing Mercedes constantly finishing 1-2, is hardly inspiring and is boring, with gaming there is that competition and it's not always predictable, what the outcome is.

I can speak with authority, as I have a 21 year old son, who has no interest at all. It's just a bunch of cars going round in circles.

As for myself, I'm finding F1 boring. I will watch Canada, as it can produce a good race and I'll watch Monaco because of tradition. Otherwise it will be highlights on C4, until they can turn the series round. During the Schumacher/Ferrari era, I actually stopped watching, after Barrichello was gifted that win.
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Old 15 May 2019, 14:28 (Ref:3903960)   #3533
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However none of the popular ideas go far enough and most miss the point that the cars are just not exciting to watch, nor are the artifical aids making them more so.
I think the cars are plenty exciting on the limit in qualifying. By design, they are low to the ground, have lots of downforce, and therefore handle extremely well... But even so, there is enough of a sense of drivers on the limit as long as the track is not too wide and dull (cough, Paul Ricard circuit).

I guess the tyre conservation in the race does not help.
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Old 15 May 2019, 14:34 (Ref:3903962)   #3534
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Hmm, not really for me; they don't dance like they did at one time and there's very little twitching of the steering wheel due to the damping effects of the power steering. Also you can't really see the driver working the wheel anymore, unless you use the on board camera.
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Old 15 May 2019, 15:54 (Ref:3903969)   #3535
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Hmm, not really for me; they don't dance like they did at one time
Do you mean in the 1990's and early 2000's?

E.g., Frentzen, Jordan-Mugen, onboard at Spa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpAVOiT2evo

That was just because the cars had poorly sorted handling at that time, compared to the modern day where the non-active-suspensions are far better sorted with various hydraulic widgets and heave springs and various fanciness to optimise the handling.

If it was up to me, I would rather allow ONE conventional coil spring and shock absorber on each corner, ONE conventional anti-roll-bar per axle and then ban any other heave springs, additional shock absorbers or hydraulic suspension devices.

-----

While back in the 1970's they drifted around the turns because, of course, the crossply tyres used at that time worked best at large slip!

[It must be said those 1970's F1s are particularly enjoyable to drive in computer racing games, because of the smooth, predictable, gradual characteristics of those crossply tyres drifting very controllably around bends, unlike the snappy characteristics of later radial tyres.]

-----


-- Obviously the narrow track and, in particular, grooved tyres were mistakes too. If I was up to me, I would restore the car width to the pre-93 width of 2.15m (up from current 2m) and restore the smaller front tyre size as used up to 2016. Between the wide rears (which are already about the same size as '92) and narrow fronts (the legacy size which was carried through from the late 80's up until when the fronts and rears were scaled equally in 2017, despite *only* the rears being scaled down in 93), that would give the tyre proportions as on those iconic 1990-1992 grand prix cars.

Narrower fronts would by necessity mean a more rearward weight bias, and remove the incentive to make extremely long wheelbase cars (as are current being raced) --- of course you could just make a maximum wheelbase rule as proposed for 2021. [The front tyre width will also go down from 305mm to 270mm in the 2021 rule package, which is a great step!]

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Old 15 May 2019, 16:09 (Ref:3903973)   #3536
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So you listen to journalists and don't consider them capable of forming a rational and possibly correct analysis of the current state of Formula 1? Yet all we see repeated in this thread is cost caps, not a return to proper cars with proper engines.
No, that's what I'm saying. Please refrain from strawmanning. I'm not actually stating anything in particular, I'm asking you a question which you continue to dodge. I am certain there are many people, including journalists, who can make a rational and possibly correct analysis of F1. All I'm asking is, why are certain people's opinions more valuable than others according to you? Why do young people seemingly have no idea what racing should be, according to you?

Secondly, you seem to have already decided what the 'correct' analysis is and everyone who is not on board with that is wrong. See your assertion above, you seem to imply that the current F1 cars are not 'proper' and neither are the engines. I find that highly curious so my next question is, what's not proper about them? What does proper even mean?
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Old 15 May 2019, 17:05 (Ref:3903983)   #3537
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No, no, no, no, no to more standardisation. This is the pinnacle of motor sport engineering not Formula Renault Eurocup.

What the Brundle article shows is he hasn't got a bloody clue what to do, either. If he wants a "train of 26 drivers" then he needs a late 20th century Formal Ford revival, not an engineering formula for the most aerodynamically efficient cars on the planet. That was very much a Boris Johnson article, full of "what's wrong" and light on "what to do."

Me? I don't have any ideas either but then I'm not paid 1000s for my clueless comments.



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Indeed. it is meant to be the pinnacle of motor sport engineering, but something isn't right because it is producing a very dull product.
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Old 15 May 2019, 17:23 (Ref:3903989)   #3538
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IBTL!!!!!

Let me say... as I am in my early 50's, I am not sure if I should be insulted as being too young or too old! I think I am just... right!

IMHO trying to rank value of opinion based upon age is a line of attack that should die off. Please let that part of this discussion die. There is nothing good that can come from it.

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From what I understand from the press, this agreement has to be in place by the end of May, and any extension will require the agreement of all the teams, that seems unlikely.
So how will it be swung?
I didn't want this question to me to be lost in the current drama...

Wnut... I don't know. To be honest my earlier post is as deep as I understand regarding timings and deadlines.

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Anyone seen the piece by Brundle.
My comment is that like most commentary of this type, it is about "goals" and not a great deal about solutions. And everyone has their own perspective which drive the goals they feel are important. Telling quote from the article by a former F1 driver...

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F1 must be a drivers' championship, not an engineers' tech fest.
It seems to me that the requirements for F1 are...

* Pinnacle of Motorsports (better than everything else by any measure we can imagine!)
* Drivers championship (we want this to be about the drivers!)
* Constructors championship (we want this to be about the technology!)
* Entertainment (we want close racing that fans enjoy!)
* Keep our roots (we want Garagistas to be able to win!)
* Makes money (must keep shareholders happy!)

The list is endless and clearly a number of those are at odds with each other as well as significant segments of the larger sport (fans, teams, drivers, business entities, shareholders, etc.) value some of each of those dearly.

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Sadly I can't do that since as a mod I have to...
I have found from acting as an Admin/Moderator in other forums that it is a tough and thankless job. It's hard as at times you actually have to just step away from the keyboard vs. getting sucked into a muddy discussion that exhibits behavior you would otherwise discourage when you are wearing your moderator hat. So... my condolences Peter.

(By the way... IMHO we are way off topic. I tend to think this thread is about discussion of concrete rule issues such as active proposals and changes vs. "what if", but that is just my opinion)

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Old 15 May 2019, 17:44 (Ref:3903993)   #3539
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No, that's what I'm saying. Please refrain from strawmanning. I'm not actually stating anything in particular, I'm asking you a question which you continue to dodge. I am certain there are many people, including journalists, who can make a rational and possibly correct analysis of F1. All I'm asking is, why are certain people's opinions more valuable than others according to you? Why do young people seemingly have no idea what racing should be, according to you?

Secondly, you seem to have already decided what the 'correct' analysis is and everyone who is not on board with that is wrong. See your assertion above, you seem to imply that the current F1 cars are not 'proper' and neither are the engines. I find that highly curious so my next question is, what's not proper about them? What does proper even mean?
You've lost me. What is the question you are asking? I've told you what my thoughts are I'm dodging nothing. I stated quite clearly that any one is entitled to an opinion and whether it agrees with mine is unimportant. But dismissing opinions because, as you did, when you thought someone who is old just repeats the old days were good etc. Is not expressing an opinion. And if you keep baiting me I shall take action.
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Old 16 May 2019, 13:31 (Ref:3904122)   #3540
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But dismissing opinions because, as you did, when you thought someone who is old just repeats the old days were good etc. Is not expressing an opinion.
It is, but admittedly a rather lazy one. I'll definitely concede that and will try to avoid that in the future. But I've tried to enlarge on it in further posts which you react to with senseless oneliners and personal attacks and refuse to answer any questions about your very strong statements. Not a very good look, especially for a mod.

The frustration that led me to post that lazy oneliner is valid though, I feel. I dismiss Brundle's opinion because of the following reason: F1 is run by old dudes, in every layer of the organization. And that includes most of the journalists. That's just a fact, not a judgement about age in itself. But it's perhaps one of the reasons why so many of them can't seem to do anything but point out how many things were better in the 'good old days' but offering no actual solution on the current issues. And it's the same in the top layer. Ross Brawn is 64 years old and is tasked with bringing F1 into the future. Of course it's no surprise nobody can actually come up with something except stuff that has already been tried and rejected many times. F1 is completely insular and that has lead to a complete lack of critical thinking.

See the 2019 front wing rules which were brought forward for no other reason than people complaining about the boring race at Albert Park in 2018. Everybody with any sense already knew it was never going to make any difference, in fact it's made things worse. There's now another area where teams can't make the difference anymore (in practice this means the established top teams win out) and the gaps have increased while the racing is no different, maybe even worse. And all they can do is go further down this road with more spec parts and even more restrictive rules. And after all that is said and done and Brawn's tenure is over he'll get a nice golden handshake and nobody will hold him responsible. It's toxic.
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