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Old 15 May 2019, 12:32 (Ref:3903920)   #886
peebee2
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Originally Posted by steve nielsen View Post
And I've heard The Latifi family has more money than the Stroll family
Doesn’t feel the need to shout about it the same way though.
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Old 15 May 2019, 13:55 (Ref:3903943)   #887
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It was encouraging to see Russell to close the gap slightly to the other cars just ahead of him in practice. Hopefully this isn't a false dawn and eventually they'll be up with the others
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Old 16 May 2019, 02:39 (Ref:3904064)   #888
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The cars need to be genuinely "hairy" and difficult to drive, then the driver becomes a genuine performance differentiator, you don't see any of this nonsense going on in MotoGP
Exactly this wnut.

There is no way anyone having their first hitout in a 2019 F1 car should be able to almost replicate Bottas pole time.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...n-as-test-ends
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Old 16 May 2019, 06:54 (Ref:3904078)   #889
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
Reminds me of an old Harry Enfield sketch, 2 sketches possibly!

For those in the UK with a memory..

'Loasdamoney' and 'Weyam cunsiderablee richar than yow'
Ah yes. And the chap with "b*gger all money". Pretty much Snr Minardi back in the day. A team that always looked like they belonged despite having a teeny weeny budget.
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Old 21 May 2019, 02:15 (Ref:3905005)   #890
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The cars need to be genuinely "hairy" and difficult to drive, then the driver becomes a genuine performance differentiator
All the F1 and F2 drivers have been racing go-karts since they were 6 or 7 years old. I think you under-estimate how good they are.

The 2018 Williams was already hairy, difficult to drive and unpredictable -- that's why Stroll and Sirotkin had so many offs with it after all.

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There is no way anyone having their first hitout in a 2019 F1 car should be able to almost replicate Bottas pole time.
The Mercedes is demonstrably a good car. It's predictable and doesn't have the instability problems of, say, the 2018 Williams where the downforce would be there one moment and disappear the next, spitting the driver off into the gravel trap.

Like I said, these are ALL good drivers -- a car that is about to throw them off at every corner with wildly untrustable downforce will hardly be a gold standard of anything...

Less downforce and softer suspension just means slower response rates, and less agile reactions required, which is hardly a gain of any kind.
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Old 22 May 2019, 21:38 (Ref:3905283)   #891
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
All the F1 and F2 drivers have been racing go-karts since they were 6 or 7 years old. I think you under-estimate how good they are.

The 2018 Williams was already hairy, difficult to drive and unpredictable -- that's why Stroll and Sirotkin had so many offs with it after all.



The Mercedes is demonstrably a good car. It's predictable and doesn't have the instability problems of, say, the 2018 Williams where the downforce would be there one moment and disappear the next, spitting the driver off into the gravel trap.

Like I said, these are ALL good drivers -- a car that is about to throw them off at every corner with wildly untrustable downforce will hardly be a gold standard of anything...

Less downforce and softer suspension just means slower response rates, and less agile reactions required, which is hardly a gain of any kind.
I take a little exception to this. I am becoming more and more of the belief that the current stock of f1 (and other top series, too) drivers are nothing special. Seems rather than being a natural ability inherent in them, it is a skill that could be attained to a similar level by such a large percentage of people as to make them not all that great in relation to normal.

I am increasingly having a harder time believing that the supreme drivers in the world all just happen to come from the richest families and circumstances in the world. As you said, they've all been racing go karts since 6-7, and have had every opportunity for coaching and improving equipment through financial resources ever since. Seems like a learned skill that is transferable to many, given the same opportunities.
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Old 23 May 2019, 11:54 (Ref:3905355)   #892
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Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I take a little exception to this. I am becoming more and more of the belief that the current stock of f1 (and other top series, too) drivers are nothing special. Seems rather than being a natural ability inherent in them, it is a skill that could be attained to a similar level by such a large percentage of people as to make them not all that great in relation to normal.

I am increasingly having a harder time believing that the supreme drivers in the world all just happen to come from the richest families and circumstances in the world. As you said, they've all been racing go karts since 6-7, and have had every opportunity for coaching and improving equipment through financial resources ever since. Seems like a learned skill that is transferable to many, given the same opportunities.
I think there is something in this but you have to acknowledge the likes of Hamilton, Verstappen and Leclerc for example are pretty special.

But I do agree with the point about wealthy families and the prep from a young age now. I just don't rate Stroll at all. He can be ok but ok isn't good enough. Marzipan isn't good enough on merit for F1. That element of raw talent is missing, instead certain ability trained into them.

The 2 big problems I have is no clear single ladder to F1 (a little less cluttered than recent years) and F1 Teams taking multiple drivers into their programmes from a silly early age - so you have F1 supported kids who already have a budget etc. advantage over someone not in the programme - who may be better. I'd prefer no F1 interference until maybe GP2 and then not the pool of drivers such that driver A can't drive for Team X because he is associated with Team Y.

I hate the modern F1 car now anyway, they're like trucks and it seems any kid can jump in and be on the pace too quickly.

All this said, I don't think the quality of the grid is better or worse than it ever was. There have always been genuine standout drivers and crap ones that you wonder how they have such loyal sponsors or parents who can't see their money would be better spent elsewhere.
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Old 23 May 2019, 14:12 (Ref:3905371)   #893
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
All the F1 and F2 drivers have been racing go-karts since they were 6 or 7 years old. I think you under-estimate how good they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I take a little exception to this. I am becoming more and more of the belief that the current stock of f1 (and other top series, too) drivers are nothing special. Seems rather than being a natural ability inherent in them, it is a skill that could be attained to a similar level by such a large percentage of people as to make them not all that great in relation to normal.
IMHO, both statements above can be true at the same time. See below for more details on my thinking...

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Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I am increasingly having a harder time believing that the supreme drivers in the world all just happen to come from the richest families and circumstances in the world. As you said, they've all been racing go karts since 6-7, and have had every opportunity for coaching and improving equipment through financial resources ever since. Seems like a learned skill that is transferable to many, given the same opportunities.
I think the problem is that we are equating the current generation of drivers with the best that might exist within the larger population of potential driver (or even the entire population of the world if you want).

Clearly driving a race car is a skill that can be learned. I can imagine that in decades past, those that were truly both determined to succeed and naturally gifted were able to rise up above the rest much easier than today because natural skill is what drove you forward and got you noticed. Today, the less gifted (but still somewhat gifted) via training can be elevated to much higher levels. I think what has changed is the professionalism and capabilities of those who are able to train and coach younger drivers.

Another way of saying this is that years ago the performance gap between the "best" and the "typical" or "good" was likely much larger than today.

This speaks to the ability of training (money) in racing to give some a leg up. This reminds me of the book Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. Gladwell doesn't always get it right, but his commentary about specific youths being more successful in hockey due to the birthday cut off date for cohort structuring seems to remain accurate. Basically the older kids in the group who are not pushed into the next group are typically bigger for their group (due to age alone) and tend to get more play time, training, etc. So if you look at the birthdates for NHL players, you can see a bias that was likely driven their experience (and cohort placement) in youth hockey programs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect

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Old 23 May 2019, 14:23 (Ref:3905373)   #894
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It comes back to your technology thing. It's always a pleasant surprise when we see drivers from modern cars racing historic racing cars. Compared to the veterans they are generally blindingly quick and it,s not money in that case but simply talent. But when they get into a modern Formula 1 car they are immediately cossetted in a car with power steering, so much downforce as to make directional control easy etc.

I have no doubt that with one or two exceptions the drivers in the top tier are very talented. I just think the cars are too easy to drive (for someone with that level of talent).
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Old 23 May 2019, 17:11 (Ref:3905384)   #895
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To come full circle. Both drivers AND cars are better because we understand them in ways we didn't previously. We know how to train drivers to elevate their performance and we know how to build cars to make them perform well AND easier to drive.

Progress marches forward and tasks that once was hard now are easy. I think GP racing has parallels to the history of powered human flight. Powered flight went from first flight to jet in roughly 30 years. Much less than the span of a human life.

So assuming everyone who is reading this today is alive at this moment. We live in the era in which we should obviously be having a different experience as an adult as we did as a youth. Particularly those old enough to remember racing in the 1950's. The difference is drastic and should not be surprising given the relative youth of the sport.

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Old 25 May 2019, 01:43 (Ref:3905611)   #896
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Martin Brundle's take on what an F1 car/F1 should be:

"F1 must be a drivers' championship, not an engineers' tech fest. The cars must be the angriest, flightiest most challenging machines on the planet. I don't want to see teenagers jumping in them and having it all mastered by lunchtime, and fully on the pace." Brundle

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24...future-visions

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Old 30 May 2019, 11:21 (Ref:3906938)   #897
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Dave Robson seems to have confirmed the Williams plan - wait for retirements or incidents amongst others.

'It was a rare Monaco Grand Prix with little incident or retirement and we were unable to score any points. However, both drivers were very good and produced measured and controlled races to make the one-stop strategy work.'
'the team in Monaco and Grove worked well together and delivered two strong strategies'


The one-stop strategy worked? In a race where they failed to score a point?
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Old 30 May 2019, 12:55 (Ref:3906957)   #898
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That quote shows you all that is wrong with Williams and how they are constantly kidding themselves.
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Old 30 May 2019, 13:47 (Ref:3906966)   #899
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morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
So the thread opener's question has finally been answered. 'We'll wait until there are so many retirements we'll finally score some points'. Great.
When will CW finally realise that she is the problem.
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Old 30 May 2019, 14:34 (Ref:3906981)   #900
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So the thread opener's question has finally been answered. 'We'll wait until there are so many retirements we'll finally score some points'. Great.
When will CW finally realise that she is the problem.
The Rob Smedley interview in the current Motorsport Magazine is eye opening for what he didn't say.....
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