End of the road for Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Forda

The whole concept of a touring car needs to be considered carefully going forward.

Supercars threw the ‘whole concept of a touring car’ out the window years ago, why would they stop to consider it now?

[Forda]

Originally Posted by one five five

Supercars threw the ‘whole concept of a touring car’ out the window years ago, why would they stop to consider it now?

With the Commodore on the way out, and only the Mustang effectively left post 2021; what will constitute a Touring car going forward?

The opportunity will be there to reinvigorate the series with more relevancy, more manufacturers, etc.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Forda

The opportunity will be there to reinvigorate the series with more relevancy, more manufacturers, etc.

TCR has got the right formula for four cylinder turbo front wheel drive...

Why not the Supercars adopting the same idea but for 6 cylinder turbo, rear wheel drives including BMW M3, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifolgio, Mercedes C43 AMG and so on?

Finally, the spaceframes ('silhouettes') can be banished in favour of cars that retain the architecture (suspension layout etc) of the actual production car, as works well in TCR.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why not the Supercars adopting the same idea but for 6 cylinder turbo, rear wheel drives including BMW M3, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifolgio, Mercedes C43 AMG and so on?

Please, no bespoke series - adopt something that has international regulations and popularity.

This is post-GFC Australia. Good luck finding manufacturers who will support/develop a car that can only be raced here.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I just think that if the category was to become our premier category then every marque should have it's own engine.

Given the Ford Windsor / Yates head and Chevrolet Aurora are already virtually identical and use many common parts (crankshaft, rocker, camshaft etc)..
Does anyone care if all brands use the same engine / power unit?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

adopt something that has international regulations and popularity.

So either TCR or GT3?

It would great to see Australian GT finally become a professional class.

Shell V Power Ferraris
BJR Audi R8
Walkinshaw BMW M6

It would be a sight to behold!

Double Bathurst endurance races (12 hr + 1000) would be ace!

I certainly see GT3 as the best bet to attract manufacturer interest from Audi, BMW and Mercedes to the Supercars series. After all they are already involved in the Bathurst 12 hour.

Balance of performance however might be even more controversial than the existing technical parity...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Given the Ford Windsor / Yates head and Chevrolet Aurora are already virtually identical and use many common parts (crankshaft, rocker, camshaft etc)..
Does anyone care if all brands use the same engine / power unit?

If you were a manufacturer being asked to join a series and was told that the biggest stipulation is that you are not allowed to use your own engine/driveline what would you say. My response would consist of a single finger held vertically.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

If you were a manufacturer being asked to join a series and was told that the biggest stipulation is that you are not allowed to use your own engine/driveline what would you say. My response would consist of a single finger held vertically.

The biggest costs to introduce a new manufacturer (or be competitive as a team) are:

1) The cost to develop an engine
2) The cost to develop an aerokit.
3) The cost to develop a competitive front suspension.

The BTCC elimates all these costs, and has a great variety of manufacturers: most of which are privately developed and are merrily powered by the TOCA category engine.

If Mercedes Benz, Ford, Audi, VW, Alfa Romeo, MG, Toyota and Infiniti have no objections to using a generic engine in the BTCC, why would they have objections in Supercars?

AFAIK BMW and Honda (and Subaru who have quit) are the only ones using manufacturer engines.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I certainly see GT3 as the best bet to attract manufacturer interest from Audi, BMW and Mercedes to the Supercars series. After all they are already involved in the Bathurst 12 hour.

The problem is manufacturer interest is only in SELLING cars, not FUNDING cars.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The biggest costs to introduce a new manufacturer (or be competitive as a team) are:

1) The cost to develop an engine
2) The cost to develop an aerokit.
3) The cost to develop a competitive front suspension.

The BTCC elimates all these costs, and has a great variety of manufacturers: most of which are privately developed and are merrily powered by the TOCA category engine.

If Mercedes Benz, Ford, Audi, VW, Alfa Romeo, MG, Toyota and Infiniti have no objections to using a generic engine in the BTCC, why would they have objections in Supercars?

AFAIK BMW and Honda (and Subaru who have quit) are the only ones using manufacturer engines.

Apparently they don't like the formula here as much? if they did then there would be no problem getting new manufacturers to join in or sponsor a team to develop their product(s). What is the difference between SC and the BTCC that makes SC's so unattractive to new entries if the points you raise are the same as here, motor, front end, aero etc.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Apparently they don't like the formula here as much? if they did then there would be no problem getting new manufacturers to join in or sponsor a team to develop their product(s). What is the difference between SC and the BTCC that makes SC's so unattractive to new entries if the points you raise are the same as here, motor, front end, aero etc.

I think you misunderstood. The front end is standard on all cars in the BTCC (well there are two: a FWD version and a RWD version), the aero level is minimal in BTCC so aerokit development is trivial and of little consequence to performance, and finally an affordable and competitive category engine is available to everyone... Saving engine development costs.

Because of those points and others, the BTCC is very affordable and every manufacturer (and even privateer) feels they have a chance to win.

Whereas Supercars is unreasonably expensive, for the return, and new manufacturers feel they have little chance to win.

Furthermore, BTCC uses vehicles that are market relevant whereas Supercars does not.

[Casper]

And a big point you did not raise is the choice of front or rear drive is optional in the BTCC.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Casper

And a big point you did not raise is the choice of front or rear drive is optional in the BTCC.

Not quite.
The car runs in FWD or RWD based on the orientation of the engine in the road going version of the car.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Not quite.
The car runs in FWD or RWD based on the orientation of the engine in the road going version of the car.

Yes, and the car if fwd or rwd can be run in the series unlike here where it has to be rwd.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Casper

Yes, and the car if fwd or rwd can be run in the series unlike here where it has to be rwd.

Apologies, I thought you meant teams were free to select FWD or RWD, regardless of model.

Strangely though, NGTC was originally designed to be FWD only, so in theory should not have seen RWD entries....

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Please, no bespoke series - adopt something that has international regulations and popularity.

This is post-GFC Australia. Good luck finding manufacturers who will support/develop a car that can only be raced here.

The only other alternative is four-cylinder front-wheel-drive TCR or NGTC cars, which have half to two-thirds the horsepower of current supercars. And we already know those likely won't get very far because TCR Australia is only being moderately successful and the first attempt at smaller touring cars in Australia fell flat on its face despite racing at the Mountain. Would it not be better to try to make something better?

[leothedrummer]

[QUOTE=Casper;3946477]What is the difference between SC and the BTCC that makes SC's so unattractive to new entries QUOTE]

On this specific note, I think that Supercars is missing something that many other championships have, which is the lure of success. A manufacturer sees value in racing if they can be competitive and promote the brand. Not spend squillions to make up the numbers and look bad (hello Mercedes and for the most part, Nissan).

I found this in an article about McLaren's potential entry into the WEC and thought it related exactly the current situation with Supercars:

If McLaren was to jump in it would need assurances that it could be competitive with a common chassis and hybrid system from the DPi 2.0 regulations, rather than design and build a car from scratch for the WEC formula.

Many other championships across the globe provide those sort of assurances, Supercars does not. When faced with the option of spending more money for worse results, it's easy to see why it's an unattractive option.

(source for quote: https://racer.com/2019/12/14/mclaren...r-convergence/)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

The only other alternative is four-cylinder front-wheel-drive TCR or NGTC cars, which have half to two-thirds the horsepower of current supercars. And we already know those likely won't get very far because TCR Australia is only being moderately successful and the first attempt at smaller touring cars in Australia fell flat on its face despite racing at the Mountain. Would it not be better to try to make something better?

What did you have in mind?

Apart from the Mustang, large engine performance cars are exclusive to the prestige segment.

It's *possible* to attract Alfa Romeo, Audi, BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes Benz to the Supercars series.
The question though is HOW to do it?

(As an aside the latter four are all represented in Formula E. Volvo would also be interested in an electric series. In such a case is a hybrid or electric touring car formula the key? Unfortunately high battery weight and low range remain a problem for electric touring car racing. )

Having sufficient battery capacity on board to supply 450kW is rather a problem for electric racing cars.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Having sufficient battery capacity on board to supply 450kW is rather a problem for electric racing cars.

You don't need a peak of anywhere near that as the power under the curve is a flat line not a curved one as IC engines have. Power under the curve is not a good name for the EV powered vehicle but I guess you get what I mean.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Casper

You don't need a peak of anywhere near that as the power under the curve is a flat line not a curved one as IC engines have. Power under the curve is not a good name for the EV powered vehicle but I guess you get what I mean.

The torque output of a Supercar engine in its working rpm range would be flat too I would suggest.

Electric racing has to be short now, or swap cars! Not quite Bathurst 1000 ready.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by johnh875

The torque output of a Supercar engine in its working rpm range would be flat too I would suggest.

Electric racing has to be short now, or swap cars! Not quite Bathurst 1000 ready.

You would suggest wrongly by a long way. An EV has peak torque at zero RPM and falls off at the top, directly the opposite to an IC engine, well all IC's fall off at the top as well so suffer at both ends. The biggest gotcha is the reduced output from the batteries if cooling is not adequate and battery temps start to rise caused by power drain. I hope the possibility of hybrid is never mentioned as it will be a financial disaster. Either stay with IC motors or go totally electric. Doing the latter would make a lot of sense, they could have a roller skate complete with driveline and controls built and the teams out a body on it. The costs would plummet and it would fill the manic idea of parity to a T.

[JAFA851]

Not quite, because currently Supercars run a spec chassis, and the engines are all in the window for power, it is the different bodies that cause all the parity problems.

[mayhem]

Cadogan counters Holden Boss Xmas message

[Mixer]

If you could stop posting that self promoting blowhard it would be good. Anybody who wants to can subscribe to his bullshit channel.

[mayhem]

Or you can just ignore posts that trigger you. That also would be good.