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Old 6 Dec 2020, 22:56 (Ref:4021203)   #626
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2 LTR Cars and Im done.

Over and out
+1!!!! you can never be to bold. They mess with the rules in rugby all the time and water the game down, so less are watching today including me. I was once a very big rugby guy, watch the ABs if I get time and nothing more today. Moved on, will do the same with motorsport when the time comes.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 03:03 (Ref:4021249)   #627
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Too late they already did.




Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. When did four cylinder cars run under the SC franchise system/category rules?
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 04:27 (Ref:4021256)   #628
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That's a bold statement.
I have similar feelings, lose the sound and yeah not sure i would follow. I tried TCR and yeah it just doesnt feel like a top end class.

Love GT3 but yeah way to expensive for regular racing here in Australia. Heck i find S5000 and TA2 more appealing than TCR by a wide margin.

I know speedway is seen by many as a bogan sport, but the most popular classes by a wide margin are v8 powered. A 900hp 410ci sprintcar that weights the same as a mini is my sort of racecar, something that is a beast.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 04:48 (Ref:4021259)   #629
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Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. When did four cylinder cars run under the SC franchise system/category rules?
And yet Supercars constantly claims the era of the above photo as part of their history

You can’t have it both ways

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Love GT3 but yeah way to expensive for regular racing here in Australia. Heck i find S5000 and TA2 more appealing than TCR by a wide margin.
GT3 ultimately is no more expensive a formula than the current Supercar rules
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 06:37 (Ref:4021272)   #630
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You can’t have it both ways
Of course you can, as I've pointed out before - Supercars "claiming" ATCC history is valid as the Supercar series is the current form of the ATCC.

The Sierra photo is of another era of ATCC but still ATCC (as was the Group C era, production era etc). However the Sierra would not comply with the Supercar era technical rules, in the same way that an HDT Group C "Big Banger" wouldn't comply with the Group A era technical rules - yet they are all part of the ATCC in different eras.

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GT3 ultimately is no more expensive a formula than the current Supercar rules
Depends how you look at it - GT3 MUCH more expensive to buy and there's an "update" kit each year, very expensive also. Much, much more expensive to repair as the parts all come from the relevant manufacturer and are heart-stoppingly expensive. Engines tend to last longer though and running costs can be a bit better but in a very competitive, all professional series the running costs tend to be higher in any case.

I'd suggest that GT3 to buy is at last 1.5-1.7 times that of a Supercar PLUS the annual "update" kits at roughly .5 - .8 the value of a new Supercar, repair costs with factory parts needed well more than double and running costs wouldn't be all that much different from the current cars.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 07:08 (Ref:4021273)   #631
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Of course you can, as I've pointed out before - Supercars "claiming" ATCC history is valid as the Supercar series is the current form of the ATCC.

The Sierra photo is of another era of ATCC but still ATCC (as was the Group C era, production era etc).
In that case 4-cylinder engines should be completely fine and welcomed by fans?

They can always fit a crossplane crankshaft to the four-cylinders if fans are desperate to cling to a lumpy uneven sound like the Boss 302 (Yamaha R1 crossplane inline-four example).
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 10:04 (Ref:4021295)   #632
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The sound is not the real point, you can have a crazy loud four cylinder engine with big turbos making big HP. But you can never make that engine produce the sound and FEEL of the HP that a big displacement V8 or V10-V12 gives you. The horsepower travels right through your body. Get a Trans Am car 750+hp coming straight in to the lane from the track and pull the front clip off and climb into that bad boy while is running. The heat is one thing 'feels like you're in a fire' you are shaking you're not sure if it's your nerves or the car why your legs and hands are shaking. Your head is right by the carb and you can't hear a thing over the vacuum. With the big cam at idle your eyes start to sting. The driver give it a stab to clear it out which scares the crap out of you. No four cylinder will do that!

You be in the pits when the call comes across race radio 'pit lane is open' and twenty odd big banger all fire up at the same time, like the gates of hell has just opened. Makes you jump! No four cylinder will do that!
that's what the people like, a TQ midget will never make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck like a 900HP sprint car can. When they go on track all eyes are on them, it's not time for the toilet.

V8s have always been big in this part of the world, when they go so will many fans. Fans the sport needs, these are not the golden years. Motor racing is more than just watching objects go round a track to see which one comes first.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 10:34 (Ref:4021300)   #633
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The sound is not the real point, you can have a crazy loud four cylinder engine with big turbos making big HP. But you can never make that engine produce the sound and FEEL of the HP that a big displacement V8 or V10-V12 gives you. The horsepower travels right through your body. Get a Trans Am car 750+hp coming straight in to the lane from the track and pull the front clip off and climb into that bad boy while is running. The heat is one thing 'feels like you're in a fire' you are shaking you're not sure if it's your nerves or the car why your legs and hands are shaking. Your head is right by the carb and you can't hear a thing over the vacuum. With the big cam at idle your eyes start to sting. The driver give it a stab to clear it out which scares the crap out of you. No four cylinder will do that!

You be in the pits when the call comes across race radio 'pit lane is open' and twenty odd big banger all fire up at the same time, like the gates of hell has just opened. Makes you jump! No four cylinder will do that!
that's what the people like, a TQ midget will never make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck like a 900HP sprint car can. When they go on track all eyes are on them, it's not time for the toilet.

V8s have always been big in this part of the world, when they go so will many fans. Fans the sport needs, these are not the golden years. Motor racing is more than just watching objects go round a track to see which one comes first.
You nailed it 1000%.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 12:17 (Ref:4021326)   #634
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That's a bold statement.
MY thoughts, find no interest in them sadly.

maybe it stems from my interest and involvement in 10,000 HP Nitro Engines
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 19:03 (Ref:4021429)   #635
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In that case 4-cylinder engines should be completely fine and welcomed by fans?

They can always fit a crossplane crankshaft to the four-cylinders if fans are desperate to cling to a lumpy uneven sound like the Boss 302 (Yamaha R1 crossplane inline-four example).
Welcomed? Maybe for some but for many, as a number have pointed out here, that would be a big "no".

Bear in mind that the last time 4 cylinder cars were competing at the top level of the ATCC was very nearly 30 years ago - that means over a generation has grown up with the V8 experience from a racing perspective.

The time may come that Supercars needs to change to something other than V8s but in reality I don't see it being welcomed by the fanbase at all.

Much, much earlier in this thread (or the engine one) I suggested that Supercars might at some point form a closer relationship with NASCAR (the 2 bodies already communicate with each other) and maybe go down the V8 with hybrid boost path that NASCAR is heading down.

With hybrid powertrains appearing to be under development by some manufacturers as well as or rather than full electric, that might fit well into the future world.
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Old 7 Dec 2020, 21:46 (Ref:4021467)   #636
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In the meantime, maybe there's life in the IC engined racing world:

Porsche working on synthetic fuel for IC and Hybrid engines.

Aston Martin intent on still offering some ICE powered cars after 2030.
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Old 8 Dec 2020, 05:31 (Ref:4021513)   #637
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With hybrid powertrains appearing to be under development by some manufacturers as well as or rather than full electric, that might fit well into the future world.
Near on every manufacturer already has a hybrid powertrain option. In fact it is easier to list those who don't.

List is comprised of:
Holden.
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Old 8 Dec 2020, 17:43 (Ref:4021610)   #638
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Near on every manufacturer already has a hybrid powertrain option. In fact it is easier to list those who don't.

List is comprised of:
Holden.
Thanks - yeah, as Holden no longer exists, of course it no longer has a hybrid - although it DID have one, with the Volt, which was sold here in Oz as a Holden.

There are new-generation, more advanced hybrids being developed by a number of manufacturers that they appear to have much more faith / interest in than full electric. Nowhere near every manufacturer has those happening (yet).
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Old 8 Dec 2020, 22:47 (Ref:4021650)   #639
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We have a huge variety of racing up here, from club via BTCC to GTs and similar. A lot of engines and categories are really good, and sound fine. Sure, a V8 is the operatic bass of the lot, but a 2ltr 4-pot is not intrinsically a bad thing.

Where I do twitch is the suggestion of TCR which I found exceedingly dull live, and little better on tv in WTCR guise. Oddly, they were more interesting as part of the Silverstone 24hr field where they ran solidly and quickly throughout. As a replacement for the current Supercar formula they don't seem to me to be a feasible suggestion.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 00:01 (Ref:4021660)   #640
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Thanks - yeah, as Holden no longer exists, of course it no longer has a hybrid - although it DID have one, with the Volt, which was sold here in Oz as a Holden.

There are new-generation, more advanced hybrids being developed by a number of manufacturers that they appear to have much more faith / interest in than full electric. Nowhere near every manufacturer has those happening (yet).
Im not sure I agree with that statement.
In no particular order to choose some random examples there is:

Ford - If you have a look at the UK range of hybrids they list Fiesta, Focus, Puma, Kuga, Mondeo and even the Transit. Ofcourse there is the Mach E Mustang as well.

Nissan: They sell the Leaf but Pathfinder is available. The Infiniti range had good hybrids but then Nissan don't do cars over here much anymore. With Renault they are going hard at hybrid/electric and soon.

Toyota: Well they do the Prius/Corolla/Camry/whatever the tiddler in the range is called. Sadly they are only pretty mild hybrid.

MB: Loads of electric and hybrids - the same can be said of all the Germans makes. Even VW is trying to move on from their emission scandal and not just going electric but aiming for carbon neutral.

Volvo/Polestar: They have massive investments in hybrid/electric.

To be honest I cant think of a manufacturer that doesn't have plans to go hybrid/electric. Legislation across the globe will make them ex manufacturers unless they do.

For what it is worth I cant see why they couldnt put a rudimentary KERS (Mild hybrid if you must) on the cars and give them an extra 50hp for a few (5/10??) seconds a lap. Get some green credentials (Along with the E85 fuel) without having to spend vast sums of money.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 00:17 (Ref:4021661)   #641
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For what it is worth I cant see why they couldnt put a rudimentary KERS (Mild hybrid if you must) on the cars and give them an extra 50hp for a few (5/10??) seconds a lap. Get some green credentials (Along with the E85 fuel) without having to spend vast sums of money.

Do you want the cars to be cheaper or green? Can't have both
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 00:38 (Ref:4021667)   #642
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Im not sure I agree with that statement.
I'm aware of all those (& other) examples. My point is that despite various people and govts suggesting that electric is the future and likely to surpass hybrid or make hybrid obsolete, there are new hybrid systems in development that the manufacturers see as being every bit as good, if not better than full electric - making it likely that hybrid is going to stay.

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For what it is worth I cant see why they couldnt put a rudimentary KERS (Mild hybrid if you must) on the cars and give them an extra 50hp for a few (5/10??) seconds a lap. Get some green credentials (Along with the E85 fuel) without having to spend vast sums of money.
I can see something like that happening - think that someone at Supercars suggested some time ago that such a setup could happen. I believe that NASCAR is either going this way or at least looking at it & it may end up making sense for Supercar. For example, could use engines MUCH closer to stock and boost torque / power with the KERS / hybrid system.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 00:45 (Ref:4021669)   #643
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Too late they already did.





See above, there was also the Nissan (the DR30 Skyline and Bluebird were four cylinders too, the HR31 was a 2 ltr 6-cylinder), the Volvo 240 and many others, I just don't understand what you have against 2 litre engines!?

You didn't have Jaguar fans kicking up a stink at 12-cylinder engines being banned in '93 (or did you!?). It was never acceptable to have such restrictive regulations and then not even include the BMW M5 any way even though it met the criteria, don't you agree?



Is it a Civic Type R or similar? You ought to give a try on a hillcllimb or supersprint, or on a circuit like Paul Morris [link], that's what it's for... You might be surprised at how its laptime compares quite favourably to something like a HSV GTS that has 250 more kilowatts, and that even at a "lowly" 165 W/kg the Civic doesn't lack excitement... (Only 0.1s slower from 80-120 kph than the HSV too, despite the power deficit! )


According to this article the ‘sport’ only started in 1997. Having it both ways again.

https://autoaction.com.au/2020/12/09...BfL1yaFl2CVT00

It’s a shame so many fans are caught up in the “everything is always awesome” mentality rather than hold the ‘sport’ to account
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 00:45 (Ref:4021670)   #644
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Meanwhile, Airbus has announced hydrogen-powered aircraft concept for 2035 use onwards. I can see plenty of new ideas and tech rolling out over the next few years - might be quite feasible to stick with V8 powerplants but use other fuel sources than is currently the case.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 01:08 (Ref:4021673)   #645
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Do you want the cars to be cheaper or green? Can't have both
I am very much for having a cake and massively in favour of eating it as well.

The low end hybrid systems use an integrated starter/generator and a very small battery. A higher spec level would be more towards a KERS system or MGUK as they now call them. With a transaxle it isnt hard to install a take off/input shaft for a generator and the batteries can be put anywhere.

If you work on the assumption that you want cheap hybrid power/green credential that is about as cheap as you are going to get.

Money can be saved by not having to design a new front upright every ten minutes.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 02:09 (Ref:4021677)   #646
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According to this article the ‘sport’ only started in 1997. Having it both ways again.

https://autoaction.com.au/2020/12/09...BfL1yaFl2CVT00

It’s a shame so many fans are caught up in the “everything is always awesome” mentality rather than hold the ‘sport’ to account
Sorry but it doesn't say that at all - no reference whatsoever to "the sport" only staring in 1997.

What the article actually says is:
Quote:
Operational departments have remained on the Gold Coast, where Supercars had been based since its inception in 1997.
That is like saying that "The inception of Group A was in 1985" - it is NOT saying that the previous sets of rules within the ATCC did not exist.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 07:05 (Ref:4021695)   #647
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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I am very much for having a cake and massively in favour of eating it as well.

The low end hybrid systems use an integrated starter/generator and a very small battery. A higher spec level would be more towards a KERS system or MGUK as they now call them. With a transaxle it isnt hard to install a take off/input shaft for a generator and the batteries can be put anywhere.

If you work on the assumption that you want cheap hybrid power/green credential that is about as cheap as you are going to get.

Money can be saved by not having to design a new front upright every ten minutes.
So, a hybrid addition to the V8 and the teams are reported to be struggling to pay for the simple drive train they have now. The hybrid addition will cost how much?
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 07:12 (Ref:4021696)   #648
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We have a huge variety of racing up here, from club via BTCC to GTs and similar. A lot of engines and categories are really good, and sound fine. Sure, a V8 is the operatic bass of the lot, but a 2ltr 4-pot is not intrinsically a bad thing.

Where I do twitch is the suggestion of TCR which I found exceedingly dull live, and little better on tv in WTCR guise. Oddly, they were more interesting as part of the Silverstone 24hr field where they ran solidly and quickly throughout. As a replacement for the current Supercar formula they don't seem to me to be a feasible suggestion.
The problem is what alternatives have SC got, I would suggest they have basically run out of options. The motor is not the problem, the problem is what are they going to put a V8 into and keep the series interesting. Saying the motor is the problem is putting the cart before the horse so to speak and no one anywhere seems to be addressing the question. It seems the Ostrich has its head firmly embedded in the sand.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 07:16 (Ref:4021698)   #649
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The problem is what alternatives have SC got, I would suggest they have basically run out of options. The motor is not the problem, the problem is what are they going to put a V8 into and keep the series interesting. Saying the motor is the problem is putting the cart before the horse so to speak and no one anywhere seems to be addressing the question. It seems the Ostrich has its head firmly embedded in the sand.
Sadly this is true.
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Old 9 Dec 2020, 08:09 (Ref:4021703)   #650
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So, a hybrid addition to the V8 and the teams are reported to be struggling to pay for the simple drive train they have now. The hybrid addition will cost how much?
What is the cost of the existing PU in V8s?

For comparison, a leased BTCC unit (2.0L, 300bhp+) being £25k per year with the additional hybrid unit being £20.5k per year.
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