New owners could focus on streets - RM

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Jay
I definately think we should have tracks such as Portland, Laguna Seca and Road America... this should be a road and street series - not just a street series. But, if you go by Cart's attendance figures, the races in the stix just aren't worth it. It's better to have the event in a downtown area or at least within reach of public transit. Again, the reason the CAnadian events can attract 170,000 for 3 days is that all one has to do to go the track is hop on train/streetcar/bus and you're at the track. There are a lot of race fans out there that can't rent cars to drive an hour out of town for an event. And the local media will not cover an event outside the city with nearly the enthusiasm they would if it was in the city's core. I'm not certain, but how many street parties are there for Road American and Mid-Ohio? I'm guessing not many.

Your the man Jay, you said it better than I could. I'd love to go to Mid-Ohio and Road America, but where are they and how does one get there!? :confused:

I say, bring on the street races!

[Brian W Keske]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Your the man Jay, you said it better than I could. I'd love to go to Mid-Ohio and Road America, but where are they and how does one get there!? :confused:

I say, bring on the street races!

Gee, it's really not that hard.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/m...lr=2&x=26&y=11

Just follow RT 97 into Lexington, and you will see signs to Steam Corners Road and the Mid-Ohio track.

Or the easy way is to stay at home and ckick on the TV.....but then, not many are doing that either are they (?).

[Jay]

lol...this seems to be something Americans have trouble understanding... not everyone has a car. If you're an urbanite, you might not need one or be able to afford one..or want one. This makes getting to races such as Mid-Ohio and Elkhart Lake impossible.

However, with easy public transit to and from the races, getting to races like Cleveland, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver anyone can go...even if they decide to on Sunday morning. I'm going to guess not many people decide on Sunday morning, 'gee...I think I'll drive an hour to Mid-Ohio to watch the race'.

[Brian W Keske]

But if that is the case, how do all those in Europe get to the F1 races? They don't seem to be hurting for attendance....albeit they are wrecking some of the older glorious tracks....ala Hockenheim.

[The Snout]

Comparing a European crowd is a bit apple and oranges, the culture in Europe is totally different and their cities don't lend themselves easily to a street race due to build up and design age. So they go racing on circuits. Go to the Italian GP at Monza and you'll realise why europeans race on circuits and why the fans go.

[Brian W Keske]

But the fact is they get to the races. If they can get to the races, so can CART fans. It sure didn't stop them during the 80's/90's.

If we are getting to the point where CART *has* to bring the races to the people (not really fans, but festival goers) than is this really a legit racing series? I personaly don't think so. I would rather see it die than go this route.

The ALMS doesn't have this problem, they don't have to go to the streets to survive. Granted, there are not as many races, but perhaps that is exactly what many feel CART needs to do, go with fewer races....but good god, don't go the all uban, circus/rock concert venues in order to survive. I want racing, not a circus.

P.S. Just when CART may decide to lose Mid-Ohio, who signs up with them for the next three years? Yup, the ALMS/IMSA. I personaly can't wait for their return next year. I want real road racing, sitting on a hill, at a honest to god racing facility. I bet there will be 99% race fans there. Fans that actually follow the series.

[The Snout]

Almost more a question on the philosophy your series is going to take. Basically if you want to get exposure and your audience responds better to streets you'd lean towards streets to get some profile. On the other hand if you don't really care about going after the audience (and by audience I mean fans and the casuals) as your #1 objective (still important but not #1) then you can opt for a more pure approach which in the ALMS's case are road courses.

[Brian W Keske]

Originally posted by The Snout
Almost more a question on the philosophy your series is going to take. Basically if you want to get exposure and your audience responds better to streets you'd lean towards streets to get some profile. On the other hand if you don't really care about going after the audience (and by audience I mean fans and the casuals) as your #1 objective (still important but not #1) then you can opt for a more pure approach which in the ALMS's case are road courses.

Not necessarily true regarding exposure. The ALMS is, for the most part, on network TV. That gets the exposure sponsors want....not being brodacast, for the most part, on speedvision. I would say the ALMS has probably gotten more national exposure per race than CART this year. Think about it. And the ALMS has also pretty much gotten the same ratings as CART on a per race basis. But CART is in a much worse situation from a business standpoint. Now I ask you....why?

It really does not ultimatly matter if only 15 people show up for the race,as long as the 'sponsors' are there to support the 'show'. That is where CART is faultering. No matter how many urban races they run, and no matter how many folks attend, they just can't seem to make a profit because they are not attracting money from the right places. Most the street circuits are losing money for CART, not making money. And that is from CART's 'mouth', not mine. The whole business model is out of wack, and reaching for concerts, and street fairs to make it work is only dilluting the reason for what the racing is really suppose to be about. Racing.

[Brian W Keske]

ooops, dbl post

[The Snout]

Originally posted by Brian W Keske
Not necessarily true regarding exposure. The ALMS is, for the most part, on network TV. That gets the exposure sponsors want....not being brodacast, for the most part, on speedvision. I would say the ALMS has probably gotten more national exposure per race than CART this year. Think about it. And the ALMS has also pretty much gotten the same ratings as CART on a per race basis. But CART is in a much worse situation from a business standpoint. Now I ask you....why?

It really does not ultimatly matter if only 15 people show up for the race,as long as the 'sponsors' are there to support the 'show'. That is where CART is faultering. No matter how many urban races they run, and no matter how many folks attend, they just can't seem to make a profit because they are not attracting money from the right places. Most the street circuits are losing money for CART, not making money. And that is from CART's 'mouth', not mine. The whole business model is out of wack, and reaching for concerts, and street fairs to make it work is only dilluting the reason for what the racing is really suppose to be about. Racing.

So basically network tv = manufacturers participation/sponsors happy = sanctioning body not propping up teams and spending money = healthy business. So for CART to begin turning things around get more on network TV (of which there's 10 next year) which will help bring sponsors onboard and the ferris wheel goes around again.

If that's the case then it doesn't matter where you run. Ovals, Streets or Road courses, as long as you have your predominate TV on network. Really if what you're saying is right (and I'm not disputing it) then it all starts with satisfying the sponsors/manufacturers etc with exposure on TV.

[Brian W Keske]

It will not be that easy for CART me thinks. They are burning money in huge chunks, and to be on network TV they will have to burn even more in order to get (back) the sponsors intrest.

As I said, the business model is way out of wack. The new potential owner(s) are going to have to still shell out some big bucks to get this thing turned around. The most important place to spend is on network TV IMO, but I doubt CART, *as it is run today*, really has the money to be on 10 network telecasts and still run a series for 2004. I really doubt those 10 telecasts are signed and sealed.

The ALMS started by associating themselves with LeMans, that was a big bonus 'out of the box'. That had some built-in sponsor/manufacturer intrest, as the products would be seen (eventually) worldwide. With that 'anchor' they were seemingly able to afford purchasing TV time on the networks, which also helped maintain, and grow potentialially more sponsor/manufacturer intrest. That in turn seems to have raised the exposure to race fans that 'left' road racing in droves during the ninties. And they must like what they are seeing as they are starting to come to the races in larger numbers than has been seen in a long time. So now they have all this 'stuff' to mainatin and grow a series while at the same time making money, but doing it cautiously and slowly.

I think CART could do the same if they were willing to strip the series down to a managable size, and slowly (re)start the series from the ground up. I just get the feeling that they are trying to find this 'quick fix', and leaving their old core fan base behind in the process. The ALMS has done everything to get them back.

This stuff is all 'IMO' only. But I think it is pretty clear the lack of a decent TV package has hurt CART the last couple years 'big time'. Speedvision has been great for the quality, but poor for the quantity it has been able to deliver.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Brian W Keske
Gee, it's really not that hard.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/m...lr=2&x=26&y=11

Just follow RT 97 into Lexington, and you will see signs to Steam Corners Road and the Mid-Ohio track.

Or the easy way is to stay at home and ckick on the TV.....but then, not many are doing that either are they (?).

Hey Brian, I think you took me to literally, when I said, how does one get to mid-Ohio, Road America, or the other great rural tracks. Sure you can drive there, but I can't spend 10, 12, or more hours to do it. Many people, like myself,often work 6 days a week, and we need something close or with easy transportation. Like I said before, the North-east is starving for big time racing(CART), and the only likely way that will happen is through a steet course.
That being said, I understand some of your concerns about dilluting the series, but it looks as though the series won't survive as presently run.


Who was that great philosopher that said" build it and they will come"

[Brian W Keske]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Hey Brian, I think you took me to literally, when I said, how does one get to mid-Ohio, Road America, or the other great rural tracks. Sure you can drive there, but I can't spend 10, 12, or more hours to do it. Many people, like myself,often work 6 days a week, and we need something close or with easy transportation. Like I said before, the North-east is starving for big time racing(CART), and the only likely way that will happen is through a steet course.

Just 'funnin' with'ya GP.

And yea, it is tough, I also work 6-7 day weeks at times. But I have driven 12 hours to get to Montreal for the F1 race. Just have to take vacation time to make it work. Unfortunatly, besides Watkins Glen (not likely) there really isn't any road course that is close to being suitable in the NE that I know of. This would be a primae area to have a 'street race'.....but the awefull Meadowlands track comes to mind. It would be preferable to avoid something similar.

[gaines]

It's all a matter of survival right now, gents. We can't pick and choose what we'd like to do at this point we have to do what keeps us in the black. I love the all four circuit racing series but we've been losing money hand over fist on the ovals except Milwaukee. The European swing is a huge money loser and I can see sitting it out a few years until the series gets momentum going. I think we need to get things strong at home before we start thinking about expanding across the globe. It's a matter of sticking around. I believe that if it's done properly we can rebuild, then go back and spread out. I don't agree with leaving places like Mid-Ohio and Road America. There are many more fans of CART than just urban ones and those fans that have supported CART for years at the permanent road courses will be cheated and I will guarantee you Mr. Tony George will show up in CART's place in a few years at these facilities and replace CART in the heart of these communities who depend on the various racing series that come through for revenue.

Mid-Ohio is always packed and so is Road America. Even in the bad rain Road America had more die hards left in the stands than any other race with those conditions. You can't leave places like that.

As for the following comment:

Helie and Gil, but Dixon and Kanaan....they didn't exactly set the series on fire. In my opinion, they are overrated drivers

I will say this: Helio will never come back, he loves the IRL completely. Gil is too much in bed with Penske to come back. Dixon never got much of a chance and Kanaan was just simply a better oval racer than road racer. Kind of like Brack. Brack is a contender on an oval. He's not very consistant on road courses. You have to watch the IRL because once they cash in on having big name owners like Childress coming over with NASCAR money and the fans recognize the names they'll flock over like sheep.

I say whatever makes CART survive works for me, for now. We can go back to the original formula after we get good at one thing.

[Brian W Keske]

I simply have a simple question. Which urban assault street race is really making money? Long Beach probably is (?). And others?

They take at least seven years to have an opportunity to make money as far as I've heard, so that means St. Pete, Miami, and Denver, and Mexico City are losing (?) (although Mexico City I would consider more a permanent facility), and Houston and Detroit could not make it work. And any new street races will be in the same boat. This is what makes no sense to me if your trying to stick your finger in the dike.

Just my opinion, but it makes no sense that this is the 'savior' for CART.

[Brian W Keske]

Further more, is Australia making money? And if it is, can CART afford to go there if they find they cannot afford Europe?

[The Snout]

Originally posted by Brian W Keske
Further more, is Australia making money? And if it is, can CART afford to go there if they find they cannot afford Europe?

Queensland Government which hosts the event is very happy with investing something like 5 million a year and getting 50 million back in the economy. I assume they are paying for CART to come down here and if the deal is based anything like a Bernie flyaway deal then it's actually cheaper to run an event like that than a normal event because the promotor pays for everything. Travel, accomodation etc all the teams do is turn up.

[Neil C]

I agree w/ gttouring and Fogelhund. CART should make every effort to promote the road courses. Street courses should be the exception, not the rule, except in Canada, I guess, where people must have their entertainment delivered to their doorstep.

Jay, we'll never agree on this, but Michigan was able to draw 80,000 plus and that is WAY out there. If there's an interest, people will come. You say you aren't aware of any "street parties" at Road America or Mid Ohio. These tracks and those like Mosport and Watkins Glen drew huge crowds attracted to the camp-out and party atmosphere. You don't have to be in a big city to have fun.

If Canadians refuse to drive any distance, then keep the Canadian street courses. For my money, if CART goes heavily street and away from road courses, I'll lose interest real quickly. I just don't like the kind of racing that most concrete-lined tubes produce.

[macdaddy]

"Michigan was able to draw 80,000 plus..."

So true. And it really is in the middle of nowhere. What happened? Years I was there, from 92-97, the crowds were remarkable. I didn't go in 98, but the following year the place looked empty. At first I attributed that to the fact that fans were killed in 98 by an errant wheel. But things just never got better.

On a side-note, about Canadians refusing to travel for races, there was always a strong Canuck contingent at MIS. Even to the point that our anthem was included in the opening ceremonies.

[Neil C]

Mac, I knew I'd hear from you on this. You're right, Canadians are as willing as anyone to get where they want to be. I think Jay is expressing what many urban dwellers want (Canadian or not). It's just a shame that the sport has to be watered down, sweetened and sexed up just to draw a crowd.

[macdaddy]

Agreed.

[Jay]

yup, it's the urban dwellers that survive off of public transit, buses, trains and planes like myself...but there's a lot of us. And if you can make a large city aware of the race it'll go along way as far as good publicity is concerned. I don't think you'd get that with teh middle of nowhere races.

We do however need road tracks...as let's face it, most road tracks are in the middle of nowhere, as almost no urbanites would allow a race track for anymore than three days. Street races are nice, but there are aspects of road racing for which you need tracks like Elkhart Lake, Portland and Laguna Seca.

That said, it really does come down to - can it draw a crowd. There's no point in racing on any track if it can't draw in a decent attendance, and eventually move towards breaking even and maybe even a profit.

[muggle not]

1. Paul Gentilozzi WILL be the new owner of CART along with a few other partners.
2. If he doesn't dump Trans Am it will be merged with CART and will be the main support race.
3. As we know, Paul is the CEO of Motorock and concerts will be used to attract new fans to CART.
4. The schedule will be reduced to 14 or fewer races and will mainly be held on the street courses in urban areas to attract people to the concert.

At least that is my 2 cents....and I certainly do not like all the plans as I much prefer the permanent road tracks like Laguna Seca. Being an "old geezer" I do not particularly like the idea of holding rock concerts to attract fans either.

[corkholio]

All street parades = bad business model.

CART needs to get people to be fans of the Champ Cars and not fans of the event. There are other racing series' out there that can provide the same if not better racing on those same **** layouts and would charge a smaller sanctioning fee. But if the new owners are more interested in event fans they should at least keep it a secret as to what no-talent music acts are going to be lipsyncing.

[Omega99]

Unfortunately, Corkholio, that's exactly how you get people top be fans of Champ Cars. If they enjoy the event, they'll be more inclined to follow the series, and the easiest way to draw hundreds of thousands of people to the event is to put it right in the middle of the city. Honestly, I probably never would have started following CART if it wasn't for the Canadian events and drivers. But I have to agree, I prefer road racing, and Mosport would be worth a shot... and Mont Tremblant would draw a reasonable crowd, simply because of the number of die-hard racing fans in Quebec. But right now, I doubt expansion and experimentation are on any of the potential owners' minds for the time being.

We just have to be patient, and wait for things to fall into place...