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Old 20 May 2018, 16:22 (Ref:3823573)   #1771
EffectiveSprinkles
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My initial comment was about wake turbulence, or the relative lack of it with the IR-15 and the UAK, which has made it easier for the cars to follow each other more closely, making overtaking easier, compared to the last few years. Anyway this is going way off topic, .
Yes and I don't agree with it. The removal of the rear guard pods has increased both drag and wake turbulence. There is no evidence the cars can follow more closely, in fact it seems at Indy it's going to be a lot harder. We already saw at Barber overtaking decreasing in the dry.
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Old 21 May 2018, 02:06 (Ref:3823677)   #1772
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Yes and I don't agree with it. The removal of the rear guard pods has increased both drag and wake turbulence. There is no evidence the cars can follow more closely, in fact it seems at Indy it's going to be a lot harder. We already saw at Barber overtaking decreasing in the dry.
You're entitled to disagree if you want but there's loads of evidence, that says otherwise. The season opener at St. Pete alone produced a rash of overtakes. IndyCar said there were a 366 on track passes to break the old race record of 323 set in 2008. This would not have been possible, if the cars weren't able to get closer, therefore making it easier to overtake.

This piece from Mario Andretti is worth reading.

https://www.autosport.com/indycar/ne...indycar-design

Anyway, not wanting to go any further off topic, this is the most up to date list regarding future GPs and particularly the 2019 F1 season, with Belgium, Germany and Japan not under contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_F..._planned_races
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Old 21 May 2018, 08:28 (Ref:3823708)   #1773
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I agree. There's always overtaking in Indycars. Some are more exciting than others. They seem to have the right amount of aero to make great racing. Is Mario still offering his opinions?

Anyway, so GPs for next year, I would be surprised if Germany, Belgium and Japan weren't on the calendar
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Old 22 May 2018, 15:06 (Ref:3823970)   #1774
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just a couple of questions/thoughts in no particular order...

- track redesign is an expensive prospect particularly by venues which already struggle to host...can they really be expected to pay for track changes? i feel like thats a unreasonable request.

- lots of talk about reducing aero but again asking the teams to give up on decades of research and investments in facilities (in the billions i would guess by this point) is an incredibly expensive proposition and one i would think is just as unlikely as getting venues to redesign just for F1.

- more of a layman thought, but if increasing down force is required to overcome the wake/turbulence issue then why not more mechanical grip? surely the safety issues surrounding active suspension for example have been mitigated over time.

i would add to that why not more movable aero? the cheapest solution i would think is allowing DRS to be a active the entire lap/race. benefits would be two fold. easier to overtake and more drivers would make mistakes.

- that itself may be a moot point as the cars converge towards a specific formula. an issue compounded with increasing cooperation/partnerships between the teams.

rather, wont two cars of similar design experience the same difficulties when trying to pass each other (irrespective of track design and rules)...similar straight line speed/similar corning abilities. i feel as though much of overtaking comes down to either one car having a massive advantage or one driver making an error. the advantage could be legislated against but then you just get more similarity in the cars.

as for drivers making errors...forgive this question but isnt there greater diversity/range in car and driver talent in Indy vs F1. rather the 20 drivers in F1 are (for the most part) more similar in abilities then 30 odd drivers in Indy?

please dont take that as a disparaging remark, just more a point about how homogeneous F1 is. in a way the spec Indy car series offers more variety and hence you see more overtaking?

- Merc's issues with driving through the field...kind of an F1 front runner issue. this is a car designed to lead. its not really surprising that they dont deal well when following. im not sure this is proof positive about the wake problems as much as it is about Merc's design philosophy.

not nearly as knowledgeable as i would like to be on the technical side of things so apologies in advance if these questions are missing the mark of this conversation.
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Old 22 May 2018, 16:40 (Ref:3823988)   #1775
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There really isn't more overtaking in Indycar though. Just like in F1 the only overtaking is done when the two cars are on different tyre/fuel strategies. The car being overtaken has zero chance of holding the position.
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Old 22 May 2018, 17:54 (Ref:3824008)   #1776
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There always has been overtaking in Indycars. Yes, strategy is involved, but so are most races that last over an hour, including F1. Overtaking happens like it should in Indycars
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Old 22 May 2018, 23:17 (Ref:3824105)   #1777
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Chilibowl, while I think even as things are, some tracks would definitely benefit from some adjustments in their layouts, the major redesign I was thinking of as being much more pertinent in the event of drastic downforce reduction.

I'm not totally against some more minor reduction in downforce, but by far my greater concern is that the downforce made is made more efficiently, that is, while producing proportionally less drag. So, for instance, if current cars are at a 2.5:1 L/D, finding ways to bring that up to, say, 3.0:1. No, I don't think any of us knows the precise figures of current F1 cars; this is just as an illustration.

And yes, I also think homogeneity of car and driver performance characteristics is definitely a real potential contributor to difficulty in overtaking, regardless of series.

I'm not necessarily against active suspension. Honestly, it might be less of an advantage now than in the 1980s and '90s, since the circuits are generally smoother. On the other hand, it would be another area where teams with lesser resources could also be left behind. Then again, it could also be a more productive avenue than just aero to make some gains.

Movable aero is a tricky thing. Probably the most amusing way to get an idea of the issues that can arise is to watch the highlights program of the 1966 Can-Am race from Stardust, which was outside Las Vegas at the time. So aside from budgetary issues, you can have some real problems with the behavior of the car if things go wrong. In the example I just mentioned, both Chaparral 2Es had their high-mounted rear wings basically just go haywire, uncontrollably going back and forth from high- to low-fownforce position in rapid-fire fashion. And we've already seen the occasional instance of the DRS flap not functioning properly, or at all. We also had an overall, system-level failure occur at Baku this year.
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Old 23 May 2018, 01:51 (Ref:3824111)   #1778
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From a development point of view using F1 to develop active suspensions would be far more productive for the R&D of the auto industry than wind tunnels and multiple wingy thingys surely?
While there seems to be concerted, cost based pressure to dump the MGUH this seems to be against the wishes of the existing PU manufacturers. (Spain Friday press conference) I would suggest that writing off the cost of operating huge aero computer analysis and wind tunnel costs could be seen as acceptable if research into areas more related to the real world was allowed in lieu.

Any thoughts on the effects of a change to active suspension partnered with the " push to pass" effect of additional stored electrical energy?
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Old 23 May 2018, 03:01 (Ref:3824117)   #1779
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The simple reason they go for aero is that it has a higher yield in terms of speed gained. In particular, drag works against you if you just keep adding power, and on an exponential curve, not a linear one. Downforce works with you on that exponential curve as you go faster, however. And I don't think suspension alone is going to give anything like the advancement in speed that aero does.

Also, much of the development in the auto industry is increasingly tied to taking the driver more and more out of the driving equation, which is antithetical to the basic premise of motorsports. At some stage, the two may well reach a divergence point.
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Old 23 May 2018, 05:17 (Ref:3824122)   #1780
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Also, much of the development in the auto industry is increasingly tied to taking the driver more and more out of the driving equation, which is antithetical to the basic premise of motorsports. At some stage, the two may well reach a divergence point.

This is where we get a divergence in the interest of manufacturers and the sport as well. Development of active suspension almost by definition moves control from driver to system. That of course is the central feature of development of autonomous vehicles.
Perhaps in the end we are looking at motorsport going the way of horse racing in being a sport primarily run for betting with the advancement of the breed and the spectacle being supplementary.


Sorry, we are getting much further off topic, although maybe that trend will start to dictate where future races are held.
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Old 24 May 2018, 05:53 (Ref:3824339)   #1781
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Skip off Argentina - the country has no money to host a GP againn.
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Old 24 May 2018, 14:46 (Ref:3824407)   #1782
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Old 25 May 2018, 00:19 (Ref:3824485)   #1783
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Skip off Argentina - the country has no money to host a GP againn.

I am not that sure. The Argentinians wouldn't spend energy and money to fly over Charlie boy if they were not confident to gather those Liberty dollars.
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Old 25 May 2018, 14:35 (Ref:3824571)   #1784
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The problem is the state budget. They have a massive deficit. They shouldn't be paying for a Tilkedrome.
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Old 26 May 2018, 09:33 (Ref:3824728)   #1785
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I wonder what are the 40 places for potential new GPs?
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