F3000 with Judd?

[flor]

today i read in a german motorsport newspaper about changes in f3000

the first thing was introducing pitstops next season

the other thing was to replace the zytek v8 in 2005 with judd v10 engines with about 610hp

my opinion is that the pitstops won't make the races more interesting than they are now, and about the engines, i don't think that the main problem of f3000 is the engine, they should care about the cars first

[Mekola]

Interesting. The Zyteks were the development of the F3000 Judd V8 engines of 1995...

[SALEEN S7R]

I see it as a postitive move, both the pitstops and the new Engines. F3000 need a power boost to be closer to F1 speeds because at the moment they are slipping back year after year far too quickly in terms of lap times.

Also every major Feeder series in the world uses pitstops, barring Euro F3000 and Int F3000 at the moment. Nippon, SWS, Renault V6. Its a good part of the preperation for the cars. And should make the racing a little more exciting as it opens up a few more avenues with regards to fuel.

[bella]

noooo! the f3000 engines sound gorgeous, everything that f1 isn't any more. f1 may be high pitched, but f3000 are bad ass noise. make you notice when they go past.

nooo mk 2! pitstops are and always have been a desperate attempt to make something more interesting. if they have to resort to that it's a sad state of affairs.

the cars should handle more like f1 cars if they're supposed to be a serious training ground. forget saleen's obsession with speed, it's the handling that matters.

[mellowyellowcj7]

I'd say that a bump in horse power would be good, but pit stops are not the way to go. They add a lot of cost, risk and cluter. The drives don't need that and the fans won't get that much out of it. The TV audiance will probably enjoy it a bit, but it will also make the races longer, which means a higher cost to broadcast.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by bella
noooo! the f3000 engines sound gorgeous, everything that f1 isn't any more. f1 may be high pitched, but f3000 are bad ass noise. make you notice when they go past.

nooo mk 2! pitstops are and always have been a desperate attempt to make something more interesting. if they have to resort to that it's a sad state of affairs.

the cars should handle more like f1 cars if they're supposed to be a serious training ground. forget saleen's obsession with speed, it's the handling that matters.

Bella yes I agree the Handling does matter, a lot. I dont have a obsession with speed, but lets not forget that the F3000 machines are supposed to be the formula directly below F1 in terms of feeder series. At the current rate of F1 in terms of getting faster F3000 is staying the same.

Back in say 2000 the F3000 times were a lot closer to F1 times than they are now. Im not saying that F3000 should be as fast as back marker F1 cars but Im saying that they do need to be somewhere near the performance of a F1 car. Lets not forget that the Willams and Ferraris are producing around 925bhp now, and F3000 produce 460bhp. That means F1 has more than double the power.

Sure handling is very important, but then speed is important too. At monza F1 machines may get to what? 198mph ish, and F1 around 230+mph now for any driver to go from a F3000 car now to a F1 machine there isnt such a huge gap, but when it comes to 2005 there will be. What are u suggesting Bella? That F3000 never has a power boost? Sure I like speed, its good to see. Maybe it is a bit of a obsession, but hey my points are valid.

When F1 are producing in excess of 1000bhp and F3000 are still kicking out 460bhp will u still say that F3000 dosent need a power jump? In my eyes theres plenty of formulee that will be in between F3 and F3000 come 2005. Ie Formula Renault V6, which is how it should be. But from F3000 ur supposed to go onto F1, and drivers arent now, now they go to CART then F1. Well it shoudnt be that way, thats not how the FIA imagined F3000 when it was changed from F2 in 1985. So update the cars, both technically and power wise.

Even the commenators are now saying that the F3000 cars are very dated compared to what they should be. The are still using sequential gearboxes! They should be using Paddle shifters, like Formula Renault V6.

Just my 2 Penny's worth.

[flor]

ok f1 has 450hp more, but the problem is not learning to accelerate or to get used to the speed, the problem is to learn braking with carbon and to handle the stupid f1-style tyres

[SALEEN S7R]

Yes I agree. But the speed of the cars should be somewhere near that of F1 cars. Ie 5 secs slower than a Minardi, at the moment they are aroun 9 seconds a lap slower. Also as Ive said the technology on F3000 cars needs to be updated. F3000 is like how F1 was in the late 80s early 90s. Its not really good enough, particulary when other series are using just small upgrades but neccacry ones, ie Paddle Shifting.

F3000 also needs a power boost so its more established as the F1 feeder series. At the moment its lagging a little on power, down compared to Nippon, and around the same as the SWS, but the SWS will have new engines soon too. Which will be producing around 700bhp come 2005 if the rumors Ive heard are true.

I agree with all of u have said in terms of the car handling needs to be close to F1. Well the b2/50 is a lot closer than most other series at the moment. And F3000 does need more power, the series cant just simply freeze and stay forever with 450bhp.

[bella]

the problem i hear a lot about various series is that they're nothing like f1. hell, you'd be better spending a year doing f1 2002 than a year in f3000. that computer game is miles more like a f1 car. so many drivers crash and burn in f3000 because it's a completely irrelevant car.

if you make the cars more like f1 it makes the series far more valid. speed, sod that, any driver can deal with the speed. it's the cornering, how the car handles and how you set it up that's far more important.

saleen, i think you're just seeing it from the spectator point. i don't mean that to sound rude, but remember what function it's serving here. you're trying to make it more like f1 for the driver and not for the fan.

[SALEEN S7R]

Yes but to my eyes the cars are as close to F1 as they can be, remember Lola only has a certain budget to work with. And the FIA give them that budget, for Lola to make a car to F1 specs theyd have to spend MILLIONS, but they could make simple improvments with regards to things like Paddle Shifting and giving the guys grooved tyres which are the same size as F1 cars. That woudnt cost Avon that much to develop I dont think.

Bella to be honest with u, F3000 needs every improvement it can get. And new engines arent as expensive as developing a chasis which is up to F1 standards. If u really want to make F3000 closer to F1 I think the best thing u can do is give them the same specs tyres, but with Avon supplying them, give them paddle shifting, give them F1 style front wings and give them a power boost so they are closer to F1 in terms of performance too.

Im no engineer, Im just saying what makes sense to me from my gut feeling. If u can think of better ideas then what are they? And please dont mention F3. The cars may handle similary to F1 cars but they dont have anywhere near the speed, or the downforce for that matter that a F1 car or F3000 car has.

Most of the drivers Ive heard talk about F3000 have mixed views. Some say its a very good formula and u can learn a lot from it. Take Bourdais, Junqeria etc, all left F3000 have gone to CART and are now at the top of the order there. And when people Bourdais talk about Single Seaters he dosent slag F3000 off. He tells it how he see's it. And he liked the formula.

Of course there are other drivers who dont, its just a mixed response that we get from drivers. No one clear voice. Nobody here can sit here now though and go on about how F3 produces top F1 drivers, the series hasnt produced any driver of any real talent in the last 3 or 4 years. Takuma Sato for instance, came into F1 from F3 failed to get to grips with the machine and is now out of F1.

At least we can say that almost all of the drivers who do make it into F1 from F3000 stay in F1.

[SALEEN S7R]

Ive just been re thinking everything that I have said. I wont be adding anything further to this thread from now onwards otherwise I think that it will just turn Sour. I have given my point of view now, and a lot of people dont agree. Thats fine by me, but to prevent this turning nasty I think its best I dont add anything more.

[flor]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R

have anywhere near the speed, or the downforce for that matter that a F1 car or F3000 car has.

i'm not sure about this, i guess f3s have a better downforce-speed relation, does someone have cornering speeds of boths?

[R]

I think introducing pitstops is a great move. The races tend to be a bit stale and dull, and need some spicing up, IMO.

[JR Ewing]

What stupid ideas! These changes would skyrocket costs, especially pitstops... Why? They should concntrate on what matters, the racing!

Mind you, I can see Saleen's point. Paddle shift boxes over the old sequentials would make such a major difference to those watching from the banks and stands...

You're also an F3 man Saleen and they only ditched the H-pattern last year!

[DanFlag]

For once I a have to say great posts Saleen, I think I agree with you on all points!

[Bleu]

I think that pit stops should only be for tyres, so then it would be good.

It could give interesting changes. For example we see a big crash on first lap and Safety Car is deployed. Some drivers could make a pit stop but then there's a risk that they get behind Langhorne or someone else like him.

[Fan]

Originally posted by Bleu
I think that pit stops should only be for tyres, so then it would be good.

It could give interesting changes. For example we see a big crash on first lap and Safety Car is deployed. Some drivers could make a pit stop but then there's a risk that they get behind Langhorne or someone else like him.

It works very well in F/Nippon. You get quick guys who qualified badly pitting early so that they get some clear laps. I've been to a few Nippon races and they're always quite good.