The Most Talented Pilot Never To Win The World Driving Title ('94-'04)

[OSTKURVE]

Who was the most talented pilot that never won the world's driving title in F1 from '94-04?

[ASCII Man]

Heinz-Harald Frentzen!
Just too nice for Williams!
Would've been double world champion instead of Mika if McLaren had chosen him instead of Coulthard!

Well, IMO anyway!

[Adam43]

I must disagree with that, although I can see the talent there. Mika was just too good (although that is not the point of the thread).

Berger, should perhaps be in there, although most of his career was before this. There is a similar, but lesser situation with Alesi. Are we counting people who raced in these years, people who didn't win the title in these years or only considering the racing in these years? Well, who cares, it is an open question anyway.

I think Berger and Alesi were both beter than Frentzen, just. As much as you can tell. All were potential championship challengers, something I never classed DC or the other close person in those years Irvine. Although the period chosen for the thread is ideal for DC!

At this point I'd like to throw in a couple of lost potentials. Both did not achieve in F1, but maybe things might have been different - Lehto and Zanardi.

So early years of this period. Berger, Alesi. Middle years Frentzen. Later years?

Well Montoya, Raikkonen and maybe Alonso. The first two came closer than most in '03.

[neil_davidson2]

I was a big fan of Alesi as well, his flair and car control were superb to see - especially when driving in the wet. I still find it somewhat surprising that he only managed the one win. Wrong car at the wrong time - he couldn't resist the offer to drive for Ferrari.

[Mattracer]

A good topic. The years and years of Schumacher domination, Hill, JV and Mika's titles force you to think beyond the more obvious. HHF would surely be up there as would JPM and Barrichello. And don't forget Button.

[Giando]

Definitely Jean Alesi, for me!!!
If only he had chosen Williams-Renault for the 1991/1993 period... oh how many race he could have won... and maybe to come later to Ferrari alongside Schumi, for the 1996/2000 period...

History could have been different.

But I love him for the wholehearted choice he made at the time.

Still my favourite driver ever.

[Super Tourer]

How are we rating this - as the most talented drivers during that period - or talented drivers that should have been WDC?

If it's the former, then Alesi was firey and spectacular but I never really saw his as a WDC, I think he was too emotional. Arguably a lot can be put down to wrong car at the wrong time, but perhaps his performance in the DTM where he has been a front runner and occasional winner, but not a championship challenger despite equal machinary with his team mates suggest he is a racer, but not a champion.

HHF I thought was over rated and seemed to have a reputation based on the fact he was as quick as Schumacher in the Mercedes WSC team, but there any similarity ended. He was another mentally fragile driver and sporadic performer.

It's an interesting topic and when you look at the line up's for many of those years it's easy to see why the WDC has been won by so few different drivers in that period as it highlights the gulf between good racers on their day - DC, Alesi. HHF, Berger, Herbert, Brundle, etc and what it takes to be WDC.

[joe rossi]

I think you should restrict this to drivers who aren't racing today , and in that case I'd go with Berger as well. I loved Alesi but he was a bit more hit and miss with his consistency wasn't he? I doubt he would have been able to hang it all together over a whole season

[BootsOntheSide]

I think the guys ST mentions could've all been championship contenders in the right team. None of them could beat Michael, but I'm sure someone like Alesi could've beaten Hill to the 1996 title, or JV in 1997, as neither of those titles were impressively won. On balance I think Jean would be my choice of the no-loner-racing guys - once you look at his record against team-mates each year he wasn't inconsistant.

[BSchneiderFan]

J.J. Lehto, if he hadn't had the accident and if he'd been Benetton team leader after Schuey left.

Vaguely surprised no-one has mentioned Johnny Herbert, though.

[Kicking-back]

Adam's summary is very good.

Kimi Raikkonen came closer (2 points) to winning the title than anyone else during that era.

I'd say it's probably him.

[ASCII Man]

Jos Verstahahahahoohoho... oh nevermind!

[Hazza]

DAVID BRABHAM!
*ahem*

I reckon Berger, as he was never in the right place in the right time.

edit: I babbled and forgot to check the facts, which proved me wrong.

[Raglanparade]

Mark Webber

[RWC]

Wow it's odd to read something like this with the benifit of hindsite!
Looking over the list of candidates it's no surprise that many of them never went on to win a WDC-they were either not QUITE good enough or made bad choices at critical times

It's interesting to theorise how things could have turned out had circumstances gone idealy for each driver

I agree-HHF was too...relaxed (?).
A very tallented driver but (according to patrick Head) couldn't be bothered much with car settup.He prefered to get the best out of what he had

Berger was a decent, reliable fast guy.I still remember him and alesi 'taking turns' as to who will be fast that particular weekend.Never did work out wether they were both inconsistant or alesi was up and down all the time.In any case Gerhard would have had the mental strength to go for a WDC but i'm not so sure he was fast enough towards the end -even if he had a car that would do it.

Alesi would probably never have made WDC (unless he happened to be in a '92 williams with no mansel -him fighting senna would have been interesting!).He is too emotional and inconsistant.
Had he gone to williams (non '92/3) he would have had many wins but that's it

Johnny herbert?
Zero chance.He had a fast reputation when he joined f1 but if he was really fast he certainly lost the ability later.

eddie irvine, dc,ruhbins,ralf
All decent drivers in their own ways but none could string a WDC together

More recently-

Montoya. Definitely has some speed but too inconsistant (?).Too many small mistakes?

Kimi .Gives a strong impression he can do it.
Not only has very good speed but seems to be mentally very strong
Overall i'd have to pick him as the best chance of the current drivers

UNLESS mark webber proves to be another shu.
It's all a little vague so far.Mark has shown brutal car speed with a dodgey car but he's not totally proven yet.
He could just be an above average driver with good mental toughness and strong team ethic .Sounds alot like kimi huh?
He's going to be interesting to watch this year!

[Super Tourer]

Of the current drivers JPM (on paper) should be WDC he's won more major championships before and that is IMO a major factor. If you can put together a championship in F3000 or CART, providing the circumstances are right (right car, right time, etc) you should be able to do it F1.

Of the WDC in the time frame we are talking about, only Hill was without a major formula championship on his CV. Hakkinen and JV already had major titles under their belt.

[Gabrio]

Fisichella, M. Brundle, P. Martini.
Three cases of really underrated drivers who never had the machinery to win.

[pirenzo]

I'd say probably Jean Alesi, Gerhard Berger or Kimi.

[tally-bally-ho]

If we include drivers currently racing I'd say Kimi is the most talented

If this is just for the drivers who are no longer racing I pick Frentzen based on his performance with Jordan a few years back. Alesi was very talented but too crazy IMHO.

[Tweed]

I agree with BScheinderFan, Johnny Herbet stands head and shoulders above the rest. Could have and should have been the best British driver of the modern era.

[BootsOntheSide]

Herbert probably wasn't as fast again after the Brands F3000 crash, but he still showed some impressive flashes in his career - he put in some excellent drives for Lotus, all too many of which ended in mechanical failures or someone else's accident. At Benetton he briefly ruffled Schumacher - it was only after that that he got less support from the team. Even then, he did better against Michael than Patrese, Lehto and Verstappen managed.

[Rich R]

olivier panis, 97 spec pre leg braking accident. he was 3rd in the championship at the time, and the bridgestone tyres prost were running really came on strong in the second half of the year. unfortunately olivier wasn't around to get the benefit, unlike arrows at hungary. and if hill should have won there in an arrows i'm sure panis could have won a few others in a better car. this is the only season panis was capable of fighting for the title, so i'm not proclaiming him a great talent who never fufilled his potential, but there was a case of right car, right driver, right tyres that could have prevailed that year, in stead of villenueve.

[alesi95]

Originally Posted by jasonhill9884

Mark Webber

Wow it took 13 posts before that came up.

Technically Senna was the greatest driver never to win the title between 94-04. But no doubt someone will get their knickers in a twist over that so.............Alesi.

Gee, such a hard choice.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by Rich R

olivier panis, 97 spec pre leg braking accident. he was 3rd in the championship at the time, and the bridgestone tyres prost were running really came on strong in the second half of the year. unfortunately olivier wasn't around to get the benefit, unlike arrows at hungary. and if hill should have won there in an arrows i'm sure panis could have won a few others in a better car. this is the only season panis was capable of fighting for the title, so i'm not proclaiming him a great talent who never fufilled his potential, but there was a case of right car, right driver, right tyres that could have prevailed that year, in stead of villenueve.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Arrows' success in Hungary was ass much down to it being Damon's favourite track as anything - I'm pretty sure he was the only Bridgestone runner in the top 10. Panis' championship position at Canada was as much ebcause a lot of others (DC, Frentzen and Alesi in particular) were struggling for the consistancy they were to later find. The only day Brigdestone appeared to have a big advantage was Austria, and both Prosts blew up that day.

[Teretonga]

By 94 Berger was at the end of his career, Alesi still had a few good years in him. Hernert was good but Kimi was the closest to NMS who must be the benchmark for this era so it would have to be him, more so perhaps them JPM.
As for drivers who raced 94 through to 04 DC would have to be the most talented who never actually won the championship! I'd rate him better than Barrichello except during the 03-04 period.
If it was based on drivers who raced during 94-04 but were no longer in F1 in 05, HHF, Panis or Alesi would be the best three.