Hans Device

[terence]

Originally Posted by JimW

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

Jim

You have a right to you're own opinion.What exactly doe's a HANS do?it stops the head from being thrown forward in a sudden stop,most drivers[non F1] have the restraint straps a little on the loose side,effect is that on impact,the head still goes forward and then stops very suddenly,this still occurs with a collar but the collar act,s as a shock absorber as soon as the head moves therefore ,no jolt as the motion is arrested.

[midgetman]

I agree with Jim, the neck brace will tilt with the helmet so the neck still moves around. I think an ordinary neck brace is a dreadfully uncomfortable piece of kit, I tried one for a time then gave up, but each to their own.

Woody: If you neck collar spins round then buy one of the "anatomical" designs that point downwards at the back. Alternatively, you may have it on upside down, it's not unheard of and easily done.

I'd wear a HANS if I could afford it, I had a sore neck once from a shunt but not enough to keep me off work, therefore I've taken a calculated risk that any accident will leave me uncomfortable but not incapacitated. Life's like that, hundreds of risk/cost calculations every day.

[JimW]

Just in case there is a misunderstanding: I'm not trying to quote my personal opinion here but my understanding of the facts. For what its worth, consider the following quotes from the HANS website, http://hansdevice.com/s.nl/sc.5/category.22/.f

Originally Posted by HANS

I can touch my chin to my chest with the device on. Is this a problem? No. The HANS® tethers offer a great deal of mobility while still reducing the chance of injury. In an actual impact, the HANS® will remain stationary with respect to the shoulder belts, while your body slides forward until the tethers straighten. (Your head will not swing down towards your chest). The slack in the tethers is taken up before the belts restrain the torso, the HANS®, and the head together.

Originally Posted by HANS

Can I wear a "horse collar" foam pad with a HANS®? Yes. Note testing has shown a horse collar adds weight to the helmet and the head that must be carried by the neck. This increases the chance of injury. Wear one for comfort, not safety related reasons.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Why dont they fit full multi point roll cages in road cars, it would save hundreds of lives a year. Obvious answer its all down to cost and convience and what is 'acceptable'. There is a coach company next door to my shop and they have a hell of a lot of trouble getting people (mostly school kids) to wear the expensive seat belts they have had to fit, I asked them why dont they just fit seats facing backwards as that would surely save lives, socially unacceptable was the answer. My point as in Midgetmans quote "Life's like that, hundreds of risk/cost calculations every day." is probably the reason these safty measures are not put into force its just a case of where do you draw the line I quess.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Why dont they fit full multi point roll cages in road cars, it would save hundreds of lives a year.

Nope it actually causes more injuries. Daftest suggestion anyone has ever made and its costing a blue chip company serious wonga in litigation.

[Al Weyman]

How is that? If thats the case why do we have to run one in a race car?.

[scrutineer]

Its all about the other safety features that are in the car. Road cars are designed with crushable structures, as soon as you fit the roll cage you stiffen it all up and in an impact the car will be rigid and the force of the impact will go straight to the driver this is why tou have to have different seats, belts ect and this is why HANS is well worth it. And JimW is right a neck brace will do little or nothing in a crash. But I sense we are back to the age old 'I aint spending any money on anything that might save my life'.

[JimW]

Roll cages in road cars. We once had a visiting research student at Donington (from the Accident research unit at Loughborough University) getting some background.

She was astonished at the way race cars are stiffened up with roll cages (never mind the roll-over protection part of it - they are there for chassis stiffness purposes ). She described the lengths to which road car manufacturers go to make sure that modern cars crumple progressively and under low (ish) impact loads. Only when you fit serious belts and seats (and HANS devices ) does the race car construction become sensible.

Risk-taking. I think that some people misread my comments as meaning that I am in favour of greater compulsion for the use of many safety-related features. I'm not - see the signature. Drivers must assess the risks and then balance those against their convenience, personal taste and budget. (As must marshals when they chose to stand in dangerous places.) I'm just trying to add what I intend to be information and doing so from the point of view of someone who sees quite a bit of the aftermath of racing accidents.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Interesting stuff so in reality would we be better off without a roll cage and just airbags or whatever, I cant quite get my head around this one.

[scrutineer]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Interesting stuff so in reality would we be better off without a roll cage and just airbags or whatever, I cant quite get my head around this one.

Would the air bags have to be FIA approved

[midgetman]

Al, it's simple. Do away with cages, air bags or anything. 6 inch spike coming out the steering wheel so you can see the danger, you won't drive badly enough to have an accident.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by terence bower

If the correctly fitting neck brace is used it will be as effective as the HANS,dont forget that they are available in different fittings.

I agree with JimW - this is nonsense. I am in no way in favour of the HANS device, but I am aware that the foam 'horse-collars' can do more harm than good. With the forces of an high-speed impact, the foam in the collar will do abolutely *nothing* to slow your head down, like a HANS device would.

Additionally, I've heard from several good sources that the horse collars *could* make a BSF type injury more likely, as when the chin compacts the collar against the chest, it changes the pivot point of the head-and-neck, in such a way that the head is trying to 'pop off' the neck. Not a very pleasant thought.

The same is also true of helmets with chin spoilers, so be careful with those too - plus they can damage your chest in an accident.

[midgetman]

Scrutineer you're being a bit hard here. It's not an aversion to spending money on safety:

I could buy a sub-£100 helmet but have chosen a £350-one because there's a high risk of hitting my head in a shunt

I buy the best belts because I've hung upside down before, and there's always a high risk of me hitting something hard

I buy a proper racing seat because I can see the hazards of a standard one

I don't buy a HANS because I've been racing 25 years and in that time BSF has been a lesser cause of death than those listed above

I'm not averse to spending money on safety. But like with insurance policies, if I rushed out and bought everything the broker recommended I couldn't afford the policies and there'd be nothing to insure against...so I've prioritised.

And I guess there are loads like me.

[scrutineer]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Scrutineer you're being a bit hard here. It's not an aversion to spending money on safety:

I could buy a sub-£100 helmet but have chosen a £350-one because there's a high risk of hitting my head in a shunt

I buy the best belts because I've hung upside down before, and there's always a high risk of me hitting something hard

I buy a proper racing seat because I can see the hazards of a standard one

I don't buy a HANS because I've been racing 25 years and in that time BSF has been a lesser cause of death than those listed above

I'm not averse to spending money on safety. But like with insurance policies, if I rushed out and bought everything the broker recommended I couldn't afford the policies and there'd be nothing to insure against...so I've prioritised.

And I guess there are loads like me.

Unfortunately I would say you are in a minority at the moment. I commend you on buying the best you can, however I look at many thousands of cars and gear through the year and many neglect their equipment. I see many helmets that are over 10 years some even older, belts that look like they have been pulled out of the river many are not fitted as well as they could be (ie to steep an angle), loose or badly fitted seats. And many cars with no roll cage padding at points you may make contact with in an impact. And with any or a mixture of the above (except the padding) HANS will not work in the way it should anyway.
I’m not of the thought that it should be compulsory but left to personal choice, although I would have one if I was racing because like JimW I have seen the effects and I cant put a price on my life.

[terence]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Scrutineer you're being a bit hard here. It's not an aversion to spending money on safety:

I could buy a sub-£100 helmet but have chosen a £350-one because there's a high risk of hitting my head in a shunt

I buy the best belts because I've hung upside down before, and there's always a high risk of me hitting something hard

I buy a proper racing seat because I can see the hazards of a standard one

I don't buy a HANS because I've been racing 25 years and in that time BSF has been a lesser cause of death than those listed above

I'm not averse to spending money on safety. But like with insurance policies, if I rushed out and bought everything the broker recommended I couldn't afford the policies and there'd be nothing to insure against...so I've prioritised.

And I guess there are loads like me.

I'm in that catagory too,I will only buy the best I can afford,"you only get the one chance" so dont skimp.As for the Horse Shoe type of collar,where did that come from? Like Scrutineer says,HANS will not work without everything else being made for the purpose,what are the chances of hitting a solid object at 200mph in the sort of cars we use.If you are working in a cockpit that is designed for HANS,then thats fine by me.

[scrutineer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I'm in that catagory too,I will only buy the best I can afford,"you only get the one chance" so dont skimp.As for the Horse Shoe type of collar,where did that come from? Like Scrutineer says,HANS will not work without everything else being made for the purpose,what are the chances of hitting a solid object at 200mph in the sort of cars we use.If you are working in a cockpit that is designed for HANS,then thats fine by me.

Not so much made for purpose more fit for purpose. You can use exsisting seats/belts in many cases, but you need to make sure they are fitted correctly.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Like Scrutineer says,HANS will not work without everything else being made for the purpose,what are the chances of hitting a solid object at 200mph in the sort of cars we use.If you are working in a cockpit that is designed for HANS,then thats fine by me.

Two issues here.

Originally Posted by HANS website

I race on a short track with relatively low speeds. Do I need a HANS®? Studies show serious head and neck injuries happen at impact speeds as low as 35mph. On short tracks with tight turns it is easy to be "Q-balled" almost straight into the wall at similar or higher speeds.

What type of shoulder belts work best with a HANS®? As the inventors, developers and only marketers of HANS® devices worldwide, we recommend any 3" belts for use with HANS® devices. Based upon better stretch and aging characteristics, we prefer that drivers use polyester belts. However, both nylon and polyester work fine with HANS® devices.

My belts sometimes slip off the device. What's wrong? Properly mounted belts do not slip off the device. If your shoulder belts will not stay securely over the device when you are firmly belted in chances are that you do not have the shoulder belt mounts properly located in your chassis. Please review the section of the owner's manual concerning shoulder belt mounting.

The tricky point about HANS fitting for some might seem to be that it should not touch the seat. Another issue might be the distance between the seat belt shoulder harness mounting points and the driver which should be "close". Good advice anyway.

Regards

Jim

[terence]

Originally Posted by scrutineer

Not so much made for purpose more fit for purpose. You can use exsisting seats/belts in many cases, but you need to make sure they are fitted correctly.

As indeed they should be anyway!

[andy97]

Discussions about the relayive merits of HANS has been done to death, can't we just use the search button, read all the opinions and make our own mind up, rather than going over it all again?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

How is that? If thats the case why do we have to run one in a race car?.

Al,

Apart from what scrutineer has said, have a look at this Its an attempt at explaining why in the right conditions roll cages are good.

[Al Weyman]

I can understand that of course, what I cannot understand is why the same is not true in a road car.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I can understand that of course, what I cannot understand is why the same is not true in a road car.

Principally because of the belts.

In a race-prepared vehicle your are secured hard with belts which stretch less (wider and thicker). So you don't hit the steering wheel.

The human body, properly restrained, can withstand huge accelerations. A lap and diagonal belt is nothing like as good. So you have to have the car structure do more of the energy absorption.

That's the simple version anyway.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stapp for some scare stories. Note the reference to David Purley's accident at Becketts.

Jim

[Peter Mallett]

The other point is that we wear helmets and they are designed to withstand impact, indeed the SNELL institute talks about roll cage impacts when they test helmets. So, to stick 100kgs of black steel into a road car does many things - wrong. Not least it reduces the space in the car (I've seen them impede the steering wheel), it can't be triangulated because you need to sit folks in the back seat (the solution is to increase bar diameter), and it upsets the balance of the vehicle (thereby inducing the likelyhood of rollover) because it raises the CoG of the vehicle.

IMO this is also something to consider on track day cars.

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

. So, to stick 100kgs of black steel into a road car does many things - wrong. Not least it reduces the space in the car (I've seen them impede the steering wheel),
IMO this is also something to consider on track day cars.

If they were put in as an integral part of the design, they could be inside the A,B and C posts, go behind the dash and sills, taking up no additional room inside the car, and with no increased likelyhood of smashing yourself against it. admittedly, you wouldn't want one that extended to suspension turrets etc - I like a car to fold up, but only as far as me - not including me. But why would a manufacturer do this ? they sell more cars if they follow fashion - turbos, no turbos but 16v, then 6 or 7 speed gearboxes etc etc. A couple of years back i tried out an ST170 when i was looking at a new company car - Lightweight car 2 litre pokey engine and a six speed box -totally pointless in a road car -forever changing gear - how much is safety equipment compared to an uneccesary 6 speed box ?
Rant over - I'll get me coat
6 speed box for the racer - totally different thing - I'll take two