Nigel Roebuck on Prost v. TGF

[Liz]

At last somebody who agrees with me! Thanks to Murph for steering me to this, which appears on Autosport.com today:

"Dear Nigel,
With Michael Schumacher about to pass Alain Prost for the all-time most wins, what do you think Prost's greatest drive was?
Brad Smith, Vancouver, Canada

Dear Brad,
I guess I'm old-fashioned, but even if Schumacher wins 100 Grands Prix, in my mind he will never be the equal of Prost. Why? First, because Alain achieved his successes at a time when there were many more great drivers – not least Ayrton Senna – than there are at the moment, in my opinion. And second, because throughout his career he was the epitome of sportsmanship; people seem inclined to laugh at that these days, but to me it was, and will remain, a fundamental requirement.

So which was Prost's greatest drive? There are so many from which to choose. You could go for Monaco '86, when he started from pole, led all the way – from McLaren team mate Keke Rosberg and Senna – and did it with ridiculous ease, never appearing to hurry.

Then again, you could go for Spa the same year. At La Source, on the first lap, his McLaren was pitched into the air in an altercation between Senna and Berger. After a slow lap, he came into the pits for a new nose, had the car checked over, and then resumed, stone last. In the course of the race, he shattered the lap record, and finished up sixth.

"Afterwards," John Barnard said, "we found that the engine mountings were bent – that car was like a banana! How Alain drove it the way he did, I'll never know. It was probably the greatest drive I ever saw – by anyone."

What else? Well, how about the Mexican Grand Prix of 1990, when Prost qualified his Ferrari 13th, after endless problems in practice, then came through to win by 26 seconds, from team mate Mansell and pole man Berger? What's more, he did it by passing the people in front of him: no refuelling, and planned pit stops and 'strategy' back then...

On balance, though, I think I'll go for Suzuka in 1987, a race in which Alain did not so much as score a point. At the start of the second lap, running on the tail of Berger's leading Ferrari, he picked up a puncture – which meant running a whole lap very slowly before he could get back to the pits.

Although his position was obviously hopeless – it took him 22 laps to catch the next car in front of him – he drove as if the World Championship depended on it. Although Berger led all the way, in the course of the race Prost made up almost a whole lap on him, and twice lapped in 1m 43.8s. The quickest lap by any other driver was 1m 45.5s, set by Senna.

In the end Prost finished seventh, but that day he seemed to be running at the limit for the sake of it, simply to show how the race might have gone, had he not punctured. Undoubtedly, Senna was his superior in qualifying, but in terms of fastest race laps, Prost is ahead, 41 to 19. When he really needed to race, Alain was as good as anyone I have ever seen."

Now that is what I call a champion. I think Roebuck made the case very well.

[JeremySmith]

Nigel makes some very good points, I enjoy reading his replies to his readers.

But it is a little unfair in a way. It is not Michael Schumacher fault that he races against a field of drivers who appear not to be racing at his level...Please don't misinterpret what I am saying,of course there are other fine drivers driving formula one cars these days,just not as many as when Alain Prost, Aryton Senna and Gerhard Berger where competing.

Having said this there is no doubt of course that Prost and Senna were incredible talents and provided us with some fantastic duals all though they hated each other I believe..

[Valve Bounce]

I agree that Prost was a great driver, and much admired. However, I think most of these arguments have been presented and discussed in another thread "Where would TGF have qualified". I could also compare Alain with Bernd Rosemeyer, who was lapping the Nurnburgring almost as fast in the fog as when it was clear. And I think it took more skill and courage to drive that Porsche around in those days. (sorry it was badged Auto Union). Whichever way we look at it, we are comparing apples with oranges. Now for those who want to throw fruit at me, please start with Bananas.

[badoer fan]

Its my opinion that Prost is probably the best F1 driver ever (oh god, here they come)

[neutral]

At last somebody who agrees with me!

Which suggests that your in the minority.

[Damon]

I agree with this point as well, 'not so'. TGF will never be better than Prost or Senna or Fangio or Clarke, no matter how many races or championships he wins.

[Peter Mallett]

There can be no doubt that in order to achieve his championships Prost had to beat his equally gifted team mate(s). That is certainly not the case with TGF.

As to being in a minority. I don't think so. Liz may not like TGF but then I don't know that many people who do. Although there do seem to be a lot on this forum so maybe that says something about the people rather than the man.

Comparing drivers from different eras is always difficult (not always invalid) but I still fail to see the connection with Rosemeyer, or even Fangio for that matter bouncey.

In the end Nigel comes to the same conclusion about Mickey-the-shoe as me. He's good but not that good.

BTW. The last driver to win the championship in a close and hard fought, fight with his team mate was, I believe, Damon Hill.

[bella]

i'm with nigel roebuck on this one. the point about sportsmanship and dignity hit it on the nail.

[Liz]

I'm not in the minority (except on this forum I suppose) in believing that Prost eclipses TGF as a sportsman, a gentleman and a pilot - it's just hard to find people who write about it this eloquently and who see Prost as someone other than a sort of Siamese Twin of Senna's - and not the strongest half of the duo either. Now that Senna has been dead long enough so people can be objective about him, Prost's views are beginning to garner more respect ... perhaps the man who raced with him knew him best, after all.

Prost was not perfect, and usually he was not the most exciting guy on the track. But seeing him racking hell-for-leather from the back of the grid just to show that it could be done is far more exciting to me than watching TGF swanning along alone at the front, and then hearing him pretend that there's still a chance that anybody else on the grid will catch him to make some kind of a contest out of this season. How he can say that without laughing is beyond me.

Although Senna and Prost hated each other bitterly while they were both racing, they did make it up once Prost retired and Senna even admitted that not having Prost to push against considerably lowered his own game. For those who like TGF, you might think what he could be doing if he had anybody to push against. Perhaps it will happen some day. Perhaps Kimi will be the man to make people start saying "Michael Who?"

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Jersound
It is not Michael Schumacher fault that he races against a field of drivers who appear not to be racing at his level...

Yes it is Jersound, Bernie, Max, Ferrari & Michael conspired to keep any driver with talent out of formula one.

That said, I agree the great man Prost had stunning competition in Senna (and others), and Michael has'nt. But my arguement to that is Michael is a fighter, and would rise to the challenge of any competitor if one came along. It's not as though he has a history of giving up when the chips are down, quiet the opposite.

As for sportsmanship, I don't believe Prost was the perfect gentleman, nor Senna, but Schumacher did take things to a new extreme in '94 & '97. This will always lower his book value, and should.

[drexel]

Originally posted by Nigel Roebuck
I guess I'm old-fashioned...

'Nuff said.

Seems the general arguement here is, "I don't like him as a person, therefore he is not one of the greats."

As for being pushed, well there was Piquet, Damon, Herbert, Jaques, Mika, and now DC. They came and he saw them all off. Although maybe Jaques will get another chance. Every year Michael is the hunted and he goes up against a different driver all the time looking to take his crown. So far he has come up good.

[Red]

No Drexel, that’s not enough. It must also be said that Roebuck, with all due respect, is NOT the most objective authority in Schumacher case. (Now, when exactly did Brad Smith asked Roebuck whether Schumacher is equal to Prost or not?) I have this fragment (I forgot where did I found it, it is just saved on my disk). Enjoy.

One of the things that dismays me about the English scene is the way that certain sectors of the media have it in for Schumacher. Schumacher makes mistakes and at times does the odd thing that makes you wonder. However, generally he is a wonderful example of a very focussed real competitor who has created a wonderful relationship with his team. Not a loner coming along and acting the prima donna, so that as a team they have achieved so much and that should be applauded. One should not take the opportunity of picking every slight indiscretion that may come up and, if there isn't one, finding some reason for criticism. It is largely a British media driven thing, there are one or two people. Nigel Roebuck (of Autosport) has it in for Schumacher. I don't think that he's totally constructive. I think that he gets himself a bit programmed. It is not fashionable to go along and support Schumacher. It is fashionable to go along and knock him and I don't like it. I think we should give credit where it is due, to someone who does a bloody fine job. How uninteresting racing became once Irvine had lost his way and it wasn't until Schumacher came back and led Irvine into a performing group that it became interesting again. People forget this. There's a sort of character, where you can see that there is actual emotional involvement, which is why you get some of these indiscretions. It's not a question of merely doing a job and making sure you get highly paid for it. The man is emotionally involved and that I can only applaud.
[...]
"I think that you must give a racer the right, a true racer, the right to make a few emotional errors. You cannot condemn emotional actions because sport and racing needs people who will express themselves and get involved. You don't want a bunch of robots, you've got to have people who are 'alive'."
John Surtees

PS: Jersound and Wrex, I wondered when somebody would finally realize the proportions of the conspiracy

[drexel]

Red, that is without doubt the best post i've seen at this forum.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by drexel


As for being pushed, well there was Piquet, Damon, Herbert, Jaques, Mika, and now DC. They came and he saw them all off. Although maybe Jaques will get another chance. Every year Michael is the hunted and he goes up against a different driver all the time looking to take his crown. So far he has come up good.

Precisely! Only Piquet can be considered a true great (and maybe Mika - when he makes an effort? ;-)) and he was clearly in his last season and past his peak. And frankly the "and now DC" is a joke. Whether MS is the best or not the fact that he beat DC does not prove it!

Not that it is MS fault that he doesn't have any true challengers, but you've got to admit the fact that Senna beat Prost and Prost beat Senna (not to mention, Lauda, Piquet (properly) Mansell etc...) made them truly great

[drexel]

Posted by AdamAshmore
Not that it is MS fault that he doesn't have any true challengers, but you've got to admit the fact that Senna beat Prost and Prost beat Senna (not to mention, Lauda, Piquet (properly) Mansell etc...) made them truly great

I'm sorry, i just don't see the logic in putting down a decades worth of drivers just because you want to make Michael look worse by suggesting his competition is weak.

If there was no Michael, then Damon Hill and Mika Hakkinen would be 3 time WDC's. Are you seriously telling me that most of the people here would be calling the competition weak, degrading Mika and Damon. Just because there aren't many drivers out there today who have legions of fans like all the 'truly' great drivers you mentioned, it doesn't mean these guys are not damn good drivers.

If you want to put down Michael's driving skill, then show some drivers who can beat him, don't degrade the opposition coz that is a pretty poor arguement IMO.

By the way, in MS's first couple years, i dont think he did too badly against Senna(who was in his prime). (92,93, early 94)

[Adam43]

Just to put the record straight, I don't what to make MS look worse. He is clearly the best driver at the moment and I am looking forward to him winning the championship in two races time! ;-) I am not a great fan of his, but this does not mean that I want to devalue his achievements. I am, as it happens, a big Damon fan and much to my Dad's annoyance a big Mika fan. However I crave perspective.

[drexel]

Well that's fair enough. It's just sometimes I get the feeling that comparing different eras helps to skew the perspective rather than clarify it, depending where people are coming from.

[Liz]

"A few emotional mistakes" is one thing (see Juan Pablo Montoya, whom some on this forum have already written off because of two mistakes in his rookie year although Ralf made a lot more in HIS rookie year). A career hobby of ramming people off the track and then either denying you did it or denying you saw anybody in front of you (Frenzy in Montreal) when you came shooting out of the pitlane ... that's quite another thing. Not to mention his habit of swerving aross people to try to force them into the wall.

Prost did not do any of that.

I agree that it isn't TGF's fault that he has no competition. It isn't his fault that he's got a funny looking face either, just for the record. Those two things have nothing to do with the matter at hand, and that is that a man without meaningful competition can never know whether he's really that good or not, or he just looks good by comparison - and neither can we.

Here's an example from two weeks ago. We were at a vintage race watching an enduro that was being mainly run by MGs and Minis vintages up to 1973. There was also a 1996 Porsche in the field (driven by someone we know). Naturally the Porsche won, in the process lapping the entire field and leaving the second place car a distant, very distant second.

Now, was Hari the best driver in the field that day? Hari is a hell of a driver (he came in 6th overall at the 24 hours of Daytona this year.) But against that competition how could you say sderiously that he won because he was the best driver?

[ttc]

Originally posted by Liz
A career hobby of ramming people off the track and then either denying you did it or denying you saw anybody in front of you (Frenzy in Montreal) when you came shooting out of the pitlane ... that's quite another thing.

Career? How many races have MS taken part? How many incidents of ramming people off the track? Talk about exagerration. Sheesh.

Not to mention his habit of swerving aross people to try to force them into the wall.

Talk to the FIA about it. So far, it has been RULED LEGAL, at least for the start that is. Grow up and stop whinning.

Here's an example from two weeks ago. We were at a vintage race watching an enduro that was being mainly run by MGs and Minis vintages up to 1973. There was also a 1996 Porsche in the field (driven by someone we know). Naturally the Porsche won, in the process lapping the entire field and leaving the second place car a distant, very distant second.

Hey Liz, you're grasping for straws now, aren't you, comparing '96 Porsche with vintage MGs and Minis?

Is Ferrari one of the better cars on the track? Yes, most definitely.

Is Ferrari the FASTEST car on track? Hell no. If it was, RB would have always finished on the podium, except for car failure. Did he?

That alone should tell you that it's DEFINITELY the driver and not the machine, not to take credit away from a great piece of machinery.

[zealot]

I don't think you can even compare the cars Shumi and RB get into on a race weekend. Yeah, their both red, but that's about where the similiarities end. Shumi is most definetely the No. 1, and he is treated like it. I don't think Shumi would be nearly the driver he appears to be if he was in RB's car.

I would like to know what car you think is the fastest? Certainly not the McLarens, and the Williams are the only other cars that are in the same neighborhood.

[Damon]

Originally posted by ttc

Talk to the FIA about it. So far, it has been RULED LEGAL, at least for the start that is. Grow up and stop whinning.

The only reason it has been ruled legal is because TGF, oh lord of the field, is the only bloke who is doing it.

[ttc]

Originally posted by zealot
I don't think you can even compare the cars Shumi and RB get into on a race weekend. Yeah, their both red, but that's about where the similiarities end. Shumi is most definetely the No. 1, and he is treated like it. I don't think Shumi would be nearly the driver he appears to be if he was in RB's car.

I would like to know what car you think is the fastest? Certainly not the McLarens, and the Williams are the only other cars that are in the same neighborhood.

This is getting old.

I CAN ACCEPT the fact that MS has the BETTER setup within Ferrari. What I CANNOT ACCEPT is that Ferrari will intentionally setup RB's car to be worse than their competitiors.

Give me ONE GOOD reason for Ferrari to SABOTAGE RB's car with second rate parts and setup and shoot themselves on their feet in the WCC.

You are gonna tell me that you WILL enter two cars and INTENTIONALLY make sure that the 2nd car is LESS capable than the rest of the field?

Tell me how you've managed to come to THAT conclusion?

Don't forget that RB used MS's spare (according to you, the best setup) and qualified 18th in Germany last year when MS qualified 2nd.

[Bononi]

Oh, please... comparisions between RB and TGF are useless !!!

Find another one to level TGF... in all sorts. ;0

[zealot]

I'm not saying RB's car is intentionally inferior. I'm just saying that poor Rube gets about, oh, 3% of the attention, while Shumi gets the other 97%.

As far as Rube qualifying in Shumi's car, that's like Bob Lanier playing basketball in Spud Webb's kicks, not real comfy. (Sorry, that's an American thing. Lanier was 6-9 and wore a size 20, Spud was 5-6 and wore like a size 9. The point being, Rube hadn't tested in Shumi's car, and didn't know how to get it around the track).

[JeremySmith]

Do you know that to be a fact? facts please!