Driver Standards, Stewarding and Regulations

[wnut]

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...eed-be-stopped

Does Verstappen need to be stopped, are there sufficient regulations in place to penalize errant behavior, and are the stewards backing off him because of his commercial value to the sport?

As far as regulation goes; "unsportsmanlike conduct contrary to racing ethics"; which we all know and understand would seem to be sufficient to prevent this type of action?

[BSchneiderFan]

Contrarywise: http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...-nothing-wrong

[Number4]

The poor lamb must have watched too many Ayrton Senna videos and given himself funny ideas.
A black eye would be the easiest way to prevent any future "aircraft-magnitude accidents". Whatever one of those is.

[The Fat Clerk]

As a driver, you see a gap and go for it, that's why it's called racing and as it says on the ticket - Motor Racing is dangerous, and as the late Don Trueman would say 'let's keep it that way'

[HDTVKSS]

In my mind, we have a whole bunch of drivers who have tried to seize on the popularity of proclaiming themselves the next Senna. Hamilton is the most notable of these.

These same drivers are throwing the toys out of the cot when someone who carries themselves and drives like Senna turns up on the grid and performs well.

The moves on the straight probably need to stop. otherwise i dont see a huge problem with it. Running people out of track on the outside ? Motorbike riders do it and no one complains, in fact Rossi made a career of it. its race craft, yes its hard race craft but hes under no obligation to let someone through whom he is racing. for the record I dont think that Rosberg should have been penalized for the Hamilton incident in Austria.

Will there be accidents? - 100%. Such is life in a race car.

Im Aussie and by default a Ricciardo fan. I like Verstappen and what hes got going on. People complain that F1s bland ( i agree, it is) then get their knickers in a twist when someone comes along more than willing to spice it up. Will this bite the Ricciardo fan in me on the ass? Probably but im loving it all the same.

hes not Maldonado - he can actually race without running into everyone and im loving it. bring it on.

[The Fat Clerk]

Will there be accidents? - 100%. Such is life in a race car.
hes not Maldonado - he can actually race without running into everyone and im loving it. bring it on.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

As a driver, you see a gap and go for it, that's why it's called racing

I am fine with that. See comments below for more about that concept.

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

and as it says on the ticket - Motor Racing is dangerous, and as the late Don Trueman would say 'let's keep it that way'

I can only roll my eyes at that use of the "inherit danger" argument to justify dangerous driver actions. Its a worn out excuse that can be used for just about anything.


Anyhow, while I can't read the Autosport Plus article behind the paywall, I assume it was more pro-Max. And I have read the Motorsport Magazine article.

Anyhow, I wish I could find the link to an article I read yesterday or day before. It's not on my browsing history. I must have read it on a different device and browser. That article was a bit more of a mixed bag. It effectively said much (but not all) of what he did was on the edge of over the line, but still "Ok".

For example, the article said that turn one stuff is a melee, so while ill advise and unlikely to succeed, Max was going for a gap and the author gave him a bit of a pass. (As a sidebar, I personally don't think enough ink has flowed to talk to the point about Vettel's culpability in the turn one collisions.) But the author did not support some of the Max/Kimi interactions on the Kemmel straight. One point the author made was that it was clear during both the interactions during the red flag period as well as post race (and I have seen some quotes from Max in other articles that support this), that Max effectively felt that Sebastian and Kimi ruined his race and he was going to make them pay for it. That how he treated Kimi was not particular "hard racing" but "retribution". I am sorry, while it might be entertaining, that type of thinking has no real place "on track". Leave that stuff to NASCAR. It takes skill to race hard and clean, but it does not take skill to be a jerk on track.

My observation after reading various opinion articles on this topic is that you can live right on the edge of right and wrong, but if you step over the line occasionally, it drags along some of the "good" into the "bad" category. Guilty by association. Or in other words, your bad driving colors your good driving.

Frankly, I lost respect for him this past weekend, but if he just cleans up his act a bit and also accepts that sometimes he might be at fault, then he could win me back. He needs to mature. And at his age, having a nothing but "yes men" around you is not going to help. My wife (who is not a racing fan but knows enough because of me) said "he is just a baby!". She said it as an excuse for his actions. I said, maybe so, but he is playing an adult game.

Richard

[chillibowl]

to be fair, i question whether or not the inside curbing at La Source during the first corner and when two cars are already ahead of you qualifies as a 'gap'!

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

...That how he treated Kimi was not particular "hard racing" but "retribution". I am sorry, while it might be entertaining, that type of thinking has no real place "on track". Leave that stuff to NASCAR. It takes skill to race hard and clean, but it does not take skill to be a jerk on track...

agreed.

for me, when it happened live i was more willing to forgive it, but post race when he basically said he was looking for pay back is where my opinion changed.

most fouls in sports are subjective. we really dont know whats going on in a players head so regardless of how its called on the field we dont ever really know if the foul was intentional or not so the benefit of the doubt has to be given.

in this case he has been pretty open and adamant that he was committing several intentional fouls.

its rare that these sorts of post match admissions are made...most know that even though a penalty might have been not called on the pitch, the governing body can and will still come down on them afterwards for admitting to the use of such tactics.

so while im still willing to give MV the benefit of the doubt (i dont think he will ever see that as a 'gap' at Spa again), ultimately my grievance stills lays at the feet of the FIA and this newly forming narrative that the drivers need to sort this out themselves.

this is an organized sport...act accordingly imo.

[djinvicta]

Thoughts.....
He is a young kid in a mans sport. He has had to come in and cause a stir. He has created his own tough "area". Sorry, I'm enjoying it..
Everyone wonders what will he do if they get close to him. Wish all 20+ had that effect, mind you, be no overtaking at all then.
You're watching a new star evolve. Schumi pulled stunts so did Senna. Not that I'm mixing him with them. Max will cock up, but learn quickly from it..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am fine with that. See comments below for more about that concept.


I can only roll my eyes at that use of the "inherit danger" argument to justify dangerous driver actions. Its a worn out excuse that can be used for just about anything.


Anyhow, while I can't read the Autosport Plus article behind the paywall, I assume it was more pro-Max. And I have read the Motorsport Magazine article.

Anyhow, I wish I could find the link to an article I read yesterday or day before. It's not on my browsing history. I must have read it on a different device and browser. That article was a bit more of a mixed bag. It effectively said much (but not all) of what he did was on the edge of over the line, but still "Ok".

For example, the article said that turn one stuff is a melee, so while ill advise and unlikely to succeed, Max was going for a gap and the author gave him a bit of a pass. (As a sidebar, I personally don't think enough ink has flowed to talk to the point about Vettel's culpability in the turn one collisions.) But the author did not support some of the Max/Kimi interactions on the Kemmel straight. One point the author made was that it was clear during both the interactions during the red flag period as well as post race (and I have seen some quotes from Max in other articles that support this), that Max effectively felt that Sebastian and Kimi ruined his race and he was going to make them pay for it. That how he treated Kimi was not particular "hard racing" but "retribution". I am sorry, while it might be entertaining, that type of thinking has no real place "on track". Leave that stuff to NASCAR. It takes skill to race hard and clean, but it does not take skill to be a jerk on track.

My observation after reading various opinion articles on this topic is that you can live right on the edge of right and wrong, but if you step over the line occasionally, it drags along some of the "good" into the "bad" category. Guilty by association. Or in other words, your bad driving colors your good driving.

Frankly, I lost respect for him this past weekend, but if he just cleans up his act a bit and also accepts that sometimes he might be at fault, then he could win me back. He needs to mature. And at his age, having a nothing but "yes men" around you is not going to help. My wife (who is not a racing fan but knows enough because of me) said "he is just a baby!". She said it as an excuse for his actions. I said, maybe so, but he is playing an adult game.

Richard

I think that this may be the article:

Verstappen on the edge - Horner



http://www.f1technical.net/news/2099...17531a9fa0a577

That how he treated Kimi was not particular "hard racing" but "retribution".

The FIA should extract the necessary "retribution" from Max and let him sit out the next two races.

Max is just plain wrong here, Kimi had nowhere to go when Max torpedoed him.
The problem with this attitude is that in a race your life is in the hands of your fellow competitors, and if somebody loses the moral fibre to respect their fellow competitors to gain an advantage and it is allowed to continue, it will escalate, and someone will get hurt.

I think that you are also right about Seb's part, the accident it was in fact two separate accidents, the first was Max driving into the inside of Kimi's car and the second was Seb driving into the outside of Kimi's car.
I think that both these accidents would have happened independently, Seb would have driven into Kimi without Max hitting him and Max would have driven into Kimi without Seb's involvement.

[BSchneiderFan]

Nope, sorry, Max had the corner. Fully alongside. Kimi drove him into the wall.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Nope, sorry, Max had the corner. Fully alongside. Kimi drove him into the wall.

Let's say for the sake of argument (this post) that you are correct in that he "had the corner". He was trying to squeeze into a gap that was likely to close on him for a variety of reasons of which none were under his control. Low probability of it working, high probability of tears being generated for various people himself included, and frankly maybe not much reward for success.

Exciting to watch? Yes! Dumb move? Yes! Does he realize that? Apparently not! What is even worse is to double down on it after the fact. A wasted learning opportunity. Maybe we can't blame him for going for it. But to continue to believe he didn't have a hand in ruining his own race?

Richard

[fredd1]

Two things here involving Max, each completely different....
The corner at best was a racing incident. At worst, Vettel should have been pinged.
Start of the race, first time front row start?, slow away and over anxious is all.

The anti-pass maneuver. Cheeky bar-steward....
Well now I see a senior driver quoting the stance and all's good with the sport...

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Nope, sorry, Max had the corner. Fully alongside. Kimi drove him into the wall.

This picture tells a different story (unfortunately, there is another picture taken from in front of the cars that I cannot find at the moment that actually shows Verstappen further back and already trying to dive down the inside on the green paint):

[Mike Harte]

Another photo, a moment before the other one I posted, and from a different angle. It clearly shows that Verstappen was actually forcing Raikkonen out towards Vettel. Raikkonen became the meat in the sandwich between these two.

[bauble]

When you listen to Max's radio communications it is always "He hit me." Never I hit him.

[10TENTHS]

There are already rules in place to prevent these kind of moves, they just need enforcement. Otherwise change the rulebook to reflect the manner of enforcement.

[Lancsbreaker]

Those two pictures that Mike has posted do seem to clearly show that (a) Kimi had little option on where to go as Seb chopped him, but was at least pointing his wheels in the correct direction to turn the corner, and (b) Max is lunging from a long way back from "fully alongside" and doesn't appear to be making any attempt to turn the corner - somewhat reminiscent of Rosberg's favourite (failed) move.

I do agree that Seb has a large chunk of responsibility for this incident, but consider young Max's move to be wildly optimistic and, given the chances of its success, stupid.

[bella]

firstly, this all starts with junior series that don't and won't penalise drivers for doing stupid moves that break the rules. most, if not all series do this. you will struggle to find a driver who has not had someone get away with driving into them. equally you won't find anyone who hasn't said 'but the stewards didn't penalise me so it's ok'

if they arent penalised and suffer as a result of these stupid moves, they'll continue to do it. f1 hosted series are a bit better, even if they hand out meaningless penalties anyway. this becomes obvious when you get a rookie f1 driver sticking his elbows out to get past someone in a f1 car and making a move that requires the innocent party to make an evasive move to avoid an accident. cue drama, and quite rightly too.

you can substitute track limits issues in the above too. scores of young drivers are unable to set a couple of consecutive fast laps without exceeding track limits because in the absence of consequences the skill to walk the fine line of 100% hasn't been developed.

it's great to see someone come in and ruffle some old farts feathers but be under no illusion about the strict legality of the crap he's pulling here.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to be fair, i question whether or not the inside curbing at La Source during the first corner and when two cars are already ahead of you qualifies as a 'gap'!

I mentioned elsewhere that the floor damage which apparently was costing 1.5 seconds per lap (according to C Horner Esq) couldn't have been caused by contact with Raikkonen but would appear to have been a result of running over that serrated kerb. Unfortunately he's been brought up from a very early age to believe that he can walk on water and it's going to take a few sinking incidents before he starts to work it out for himself.

[Compromised]

I like this new "give a driver a warning at the race after he run foul of the rules" stewarding.

Hopefully it extends to those not as marketable and popular as Max..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bella

firstly, this all starts with junior series that don't and won't penalise drivers for doing stupid moves that break the rules. most, if not all series do this. you will struggle to find a driver who has not had someone get away with driving into them. equally you won't find anyone who hasn't said 'but the stewards didn't penalise me so it's ok'

if they arent penalised and suffer as a result of these stupid moves, they'll continue to do it. f1 hosted series are a bit better, even if they hand out meaningless penalties anyway. this becomes obvious when you get a rookie f1 driver sticking his elbows out to get past someone in a f1 car and making a move that requires the innocent party to make an evasive move to avoid an accident. cue drama, and quite rightly too.

you can substitute track limits issues in the above too. scores of young drivers are unable to set a couple of consecutive fast laps without exceeding track limits because in the absence of consequences the skill to walk the fine line of 100% hasn't been developed.

it's great to see someone come in and ruffle some old farts feathers but be under no illusion about the strict legality of the crap he's pulling here.

Great post Bella!

If you don't enforce the rules don't expect people to respect them!

[old man]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Nope, sorry, Max had the corner. Fully alongside. Kimi drove him into the wall.

[Mike Harte]

On track limits, this shot from directly above Ricciardo and Bottas clearly shows that the limits, to my mind, are being abused. I would love to be able to see another picture from about 2 metres further forward, as it seems as if the trajectory of the Red Bull would take all 4 wheels over the white line. Whatever, this move certainly gave Ricciard an advantage, allowing him to take 5th from the Williams driver.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

On track limits, this shot from directly above Ricciardo and Bottas clearly shows that the limits, to my mind, are being abused. I would love to be able to see another picture from about 2 metres further forward, as it seems as if the trajectory of the Red Bull would take all 4 wheels over the white line. Whatever, this move certainly gave Ricciard an advantage, allowing him to take 5th from the Williams driver.

Nothing will change until the FIA removes exit kerbs altogether and puts a king big obstacle on the apex of each corner.

In the meantime (at Monza) the first serrated kerb is meaningless and the real track limit is the sausage kerb next to it. I don't agree with that, but it's the way it is. When I've raced at places with flat meaningless kerbs, I've driven over them too. It's faster that way.