2011 Sebring Audi R-15's (thread currently closed)

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It seems to me that Audi has not learned their lesson from 2009 and is showing up at Le Mans with a poorly raced new car again.

Peugeot is doing exactly the right thing, who cares if the 90X has a hard time at Sebring, the weaknesses found there will make the car stronger at Le Mans - where it counts.

I wish they would run the R18 at Sebring during the race so I can see it in person. I know it will be there, but won't be on track till the following week.
I bet Audi is going to the winter Sebring test with it -after they test at Homestead in Miami.
Maybe Audi is running the R15 at Sebring because that car will see a US campaing by a privateer in the future and they are trying to keep an interest in the car?

[Audi Racer]

Let's put it this way. Audis new "baby" is shy.

[chernaudi]

Audi didn't run the R15 at Sebring, and instead tested it for a week there, including a 30 hour test.

But then again, Peugeot did 11 30 hour tests with the 908 before Le Mans last year and blew it because they, for whatever reason, ran weaker con rods in their engines instead of sticking to a formula that worked for them in the past on the engine front.

Audi meanwhile knew that if the R15 can survive a 30 hour test at Sebring, there was a 99% chance that it would survive Le Mans.

However, the big difference is that Audi as a result of testing found something that they knew would work reliably and Peugeot, in spite of their by then intimate knowlege of the 908, gambled and came up short.

I think it's better that Audi test their car with some endurance tests and know that they have a reliable car that they can make faster (ala R8 and R10), only difference is that Audi raced at Sebring in '00 and '06. However, the races were more of a test, as Audi did a second 12 hour run Monday or Tuesday after the race.

Aside from not racing, I see no difference in the Audi strategy, and I think it's better to try and run 30 hours straight after some set up runs than to race with a relatively unproven car and have a broken up test (race as a test and a second test after everything's cooled off).

[P38 in workshop]

I may be cynical in these matters,so treat these remarks accordingly.The R15's that show up will be anything but knackered examples,they will be the best that Audi Sport can produce and they will be used to gather data about the opposition's pace.The R18 will be compared to the pace of the R15 at some point to gauge the performance relative to the rest of the field.Any startling new developments that are being introduced on the R18 will not be seen by the opposition until it is to late to incorporate them.I would expect that any developments that may be viewed as controversial will have been cleared by the ACO with a view to avoiding protests at scrutineering.The mystery surrounding the Peugeot suggests something similar going on there.

[Tim the Grey]

Which is what I said about a week ago. Run the old beast, get points, test both, see how you stack up.

Makes s lot of sense to me, though they should beware of getting caught by race 'issues' as they did with R15! Hopefully Spa will give them THAT piece of the jigsaw...

[broadrun96]

Personally think Audi will stretch out one of the R15s to its limit to see if they can push and challenge the newer Pugs into problems. I'm guessing the restrictions to balance them to the 2011 chassis will be punitive at best and will make pushing the Pugs a tough run but possibly a great race for the fans.

[chernaudi]

And I do think that we're forgetting the waiver proviso. Teams or manufacturers who wanted to make changes had to submit an application for a waiver detailing proposed changes to the ACO on or before Oct. 31st.

If Audi had anything planned for the R15, they'd have submitted a waiver by that time. Whether or not they did isn't known, and all we'll know is that it has four rings on the snout, has a 5.5 V10 diesel restricted to about 550bhp and will have some form of wheels and tires on the front.

I don't think that this speculation will go away until Audi shows us the R15 for Sebring, because they're oddly being very secretive with the modernized R15, seemingly more so than with the R18, the car that Audi really should be hiding from us, let alone Peugeot or AMR.

So I agree with P38. The R15 saga isn't over yet, but we won't know what's going on with the R15, the 90X, let alone the R18 for a long time to come.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Whether or not they did isn't known

It is known; Audi has made no changes to the R15+.

[chernaudi]

Well, if Audi has made no major changes, why the secrecy about the R15. And Audi wouldn't call it the "++" unless they were trying to do something to counter the power limiting restrictions. Audi never called the R8 the "R8+", even in 2001 when some major areo changes were made, and Audi didn't call the "Spa-wing" equipped R10 the "R10+" either. The "+" is a designation that Audi uses for major updates aimed at performance improvments and the like.

If Audi was to run the R15 in 2010 spec at Sebring, why wouldn't they just say it, unless they're trying to give Peugeot and AMR false hopes of beating them.

Audi has little to gain with being coy on the R15 if only minimal modifications were to be made to it. Audi has a lot more to gain by maintaining silence on the R15 if they did make major changes to it, and obviously doing the same on the R18 and keeping as much a secret as possible until it's too late for Peugeot or AMR to counter the threat without slowing down or temporarily derailing their programs.

I can understand where Mike is coming from--the ACO said that unless a waiver was submitted, a 2010 car is pretty much a 2010 car. But I can understand where others are coming from who say that Audi have some cards that they're not showing, and that they probably submitted a waiver well before 10/31.

But I just don't see what Audi has to gain by treating the Audi R15 ++ as almost a black project on the level of the R18 unless they have something on the cars that they don't want us--let alone Peugeot and AMR--to know about and are trying to hide it from us for as long as they possibly can.

It also doesn't help that ACO waivers and most of the stuff in Audi and Peugeot's development of the new cars and such aren't in the public domain, and I don't think that freedom of information requests will phase any of that in the immediate future.

The fact is that Audi had plenty of time to submit a waiver to the ACO for the front end mods and that's not a matter of public record unless the FIA sues the ACO, and the FIA under Mr. Todt doesn't seem to have any worries about the ACO.

We probably will have to wait until at least the Sebring ALMS test to see what--if anything--that Audi may have up their sleeves, because they've been ultra-secretive about the Sebring spec R15s, and I don't think that they would be if they didn't have something to hide from their opposition.

But that begs the question, that if Audi has a surprise for Peugeot and AMR, if it's not the wider wheels/tires and associtated changes, what else could be instore?

This is, of course, is what Audi gets by their silence--the R15 is supposed to be obsolescent under the new regs, as the new cars will benefit the most with the new rules. Silence breeds speculation--just ask Kristen Stewart and Rob Pattinson. If Audi has made no major changes to the R15, and there's proof to back it up, I'll take that. But if Audi made changes, I'd like to see proof of that too. Problem is, no matter what side you're on, we'll probably have to wait a while--possibly until Sebring race week itself unless an R15 is caught testing at Sebring or elsewhere before the race, and I'd have to say that catching the R18 is more likely.

However, since the R18 tested in Florida before Christmas and no photos have surfaced, what's the likely hood of an updated R15 spyshot in the immedate future?

[MulsanneMike]

Gotta ask, where's this waiver even mentioned? Full text of 2011 regulations is pretty clear regarding 2010 LMP1s:

ART. 19 – ADJUSTMENT OF THE PERFORMANCE LMP1: The ACO wants to maximise the equality of performance between the LMP1s that use different types of engine and different fuels. For this purpose, the ACO reserves the right to adjust the following elements for each type of engine and/or each type of fuel:
• Minimum weight of the car ;
• Air restrictor sizes ;
• Fuel tank capacity ;
The LMP1s having participated in at least one race organized according to the ACO specifications before 31/12/2010 will be admitted in 2011 under the condition to keep the full specifications of the 2010 season. No changes will be permitted in 2011 apart from those necessary for the safety and for the adjustment of performances compared to the 2011 LMP1.
These mandatory modifications are :
• The restrictor diameters and the boost pressure for turbocharged engines (see appendix 1). The values are established to maintain a slight advantage to the LMP1s in compliance with the 2011 regulations. The only modifications permitted on the engine will be those necessary for the use of new restrictors in order to maintain the efficiency of the engine. These modifications must not have other goals in any case. These modifications must be the subject of an express and
justified request of the manufacturers or the tuners and must be described in detail on a dossier submitted to the ACO. It is up to the ACO to accept or not these
modifications. The manufacturer or the tuner must preserve during all the 2011 season an engine used at least in one race in 2010 and with the intact ACO seals. It must be possible to compare at any time this engine with the engines used in 2011, the only differences admitted being those accepted by the ACO in the conditions defined above.
• The capacity of fuel tanks: similar to LMP1 in 2011.


To further add regarding the R15+ for Sebring, my source is close enough to the project to know. They've indicated the R15 will undergo no development given the restrictions imposed by the ACO on 2010 LMP1s racing in 2011.

[chernaudi]

Lets think about this a moment. Mike has his sources and Marshall (who started the suggestion that Audi will run R18 front wheels/tires and suspension on the R15 at Sebring) has his. In both cases, it seems that they've (the sources) spoken under terms that they are to remain anonyomous.

Could it be that they're speaking to some of the same people, and that at least one or the other may've been intentionally misinformed in order to promote confusion by giving information to these guys, while Audi themselves "offically" play the silence game, leaving us to bicker about until god knows when? Audi are masters of screwing with people, after all. I wouldn't hold anything coming from anyone who gets a paycheck signed off by Audi AG or Audi Sport as the gospel right now, as they have a lot to gain by muddying the waters.

Not saying that Mike or Marshall have been lied to, but I think that there's a lot going on there, and as Marshall recently told me, "...anything on a forum is wrong"

All I can say is that one possibility is as right as the other right now, as there's no official proof from Audi on the R15, what change if any have been made, and Audi's silence on the subject is largely driving this, as we all want to know what's going on. And of course, Audi's silence in turn has fostered this debate.

However, I have enough cynicism, being a Kristen Stewart and Rob Pattinson fan (referenced in my previous post) as well as a Cher fan to not give a lot of credibility to anon. sources unless something substantive come to light. Tabloid journalism thirives off of anon. sources. I don't think that Mike or Marshall are in any such a game by choice, but Audi have a lot to gain by having employees agreeing to speak to them and are at the mercy of their sources. But if one or the other's story is able to be substantiated by a photo of the R15 testing, then I'll rest my case.

If I see a photo of the R15 and it has a large volume diffuser and wide front fender bulges, then Marshall's sources are right. If it looks exactly like last year's car, then Mike's sources are right. Just remember not to kill the messenger if his source is wrong. At least both Mike and Marshall have some info to back their sides of the discussion up.

Speaking to the waiver deal, Mike, I believe it was something that came about when the ACO were their usual wishy-washy selves late this summer when one of the drafts of proposed regs came out. Either the car had to be raced at least once in whatever form to be homogated (as in the final regs), or the team/manufacturer had to submit a waiver to the ACO by 10/31. I may be confused, but I heard that was an option that the ACO posted to teams over the summer.

Of course, we all know how the ACO tends to be with waivers--they're about as wishy-washy and inconsistant with them as with their rules.

I think that it's better to discuss the possiblities of what it going on instead of arguing who's right or wrong right now. After all, both Marshall and Mike have their sources with Audi Sport, but remember who's paying their sources: Audi AG. And that alone should bring their sources' credibility into some question here. I wouldn't put too much stock in anyone who is paid by Audi right now. Just don't get after Marshall or Mike because they have conflicting info. Remember their "sources" and don't kill the messenger.

However, I also have to say that some people from Audi Sport probably have been frequenting this board, and some may be sadistic enough to get a kick out of our misery and angst. Whatever it may be, it does provide a cover, even small as to what's really going on, whatever it may or may not be.

[Dani Filth]

i belive lemans.org is the best source that can be .. and to me it's pretty clear

to keep the full specifications of the 2010 season

[porsche91722]

Can I just ask this one question. WTF has Rob Pattinson and Kristan Stewart got anything to do with the subject at hand? Cher, maybe, as she has had a fair bit of bodywork and aero modification over the years.

[Dani Filth]

don't go there

[MulsanneMike]

OMG, enough already! Three pages on a car that's only going to race once and that we've already seen, WTH?! It's painfully clear the ACO doesn't want anyone to continue to develop "dead" technology, and my sources reflect that. That you want to continue to look for wiggle room where there isn't any makes me wonder why all the effort? Face it, Audi is putting all their effort into the R18, period!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Can I just ask this one question. WTF has Rob Pattinson and Kristan Stewart got anything to do with the subject at hand? Cher, maybe, as she has had a fair bit of bodywork and aero modification over the years.

Maybe it's customary now to list one's favorite celebrities to add credibility to your post

[cmk]

Don't really get how Audi is being "so secretive" about the Sebring R15+. It's an old car that has already raced and won Le Mans, so they're hardly going to throw it a 'launch party' to celebrate its restricted form while it waits to die. If the biggest change is wide wheels and tyres, that's hardly a major marketing moment!

[chernaudi]

First of all, the Kristen and Rob comments relate to their silence about their relationship and the speculation that it caused.

Audi being silent about what in theory at least should be an obsolecent car and being (albeit only marginally) more upfront about the R18 is what's breeding this. It also doesn't help that two guys have conflicting info from sources with Audi Sport. Granted, there's a time gap of a couple of months between when Marshall got his info and when Mike got his, which means that even if the ACO allowed them to, Audi could've dropped plans to convert the R15 to the wider front wheels/tires on their own for all we know, which is pretty much nothing.

Maybe we should all agree to drop this discussion--at least the in depth arguments of the theories behind it--until Audi says something official about the R15 or it's caught testing in Sebring spec, which since the R18 tested in Florida in recent weeks and no photos have shown up of it, the latter isn't very likely to happen soon, and it seems, neither will the former.

Only Audi and the ACO know what's going on, and until either of them say something, everything that's been said should probably be taken with a grain of salt, as it's basically all speculation. However, Audi has done very little themselves to help us, which of course is their perogative.

But then again, as CMK said, even if Audi is allowed to run the wider tires on the R15, it shouldn't be a major shock--Audi tested the R15 at Sebring last year in that format. However, if Audi is doing that now with the R15, it's obviously a fact finding mission. If the R15 is restricted to roughly equal performance to the R18 and the 90X, Audi can get some info in race conditions without running the R18 in the race.

But then again, what's stopping Audi from converting an R8--as it's most similar overall in concept to the R18 as far as it's chassis dynamics (weight distribution, smallish engine, etc.)--or whatever they want to run the wider tires? The R8 is obviously obsolete under the current regs, and bascially has been since 2006.

And of course, the ACO can't stop Audi or Peugeot from converting a R15 or a 908 to run wider fronts in private testing--Peugeot probably did that with a 908 earlier this year in a private test, but yet there's not this kind of hub-bub about the 908 with wider fronts. Maybe it's because that unless the 90x hits a massive snag in testing, the 908's basically a museum piece and only Audi has intended to run a grandfathered car.

I myself am torn on what Audi has to loose or gain by running the R15 at Sebring in "wide tire" spec. Why make that investment for only once race, when testing the R18 should make it clear what the benefits/drawbacks are? But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that Audi intended to run updated R15s in the ALMS this year until AoA and Audi AG infighting (AoA wanting Audi AG to pay for much of the program) killed it.

With all the conflicting stories basically adding up to speculation at the moment, who knows what Audi is doing, though them not going into any detail on what the "++" updates means considering that the R15 is an obsolescent car, isn't helping the fact. I'm not expecting a launch party, but at least a press release, or a mention of changes in the original R18 PR would've been nice.

Add in the fact that the ACO has tended to be wishy-washy on "spirit of the rules" calls and that they've bent over backwards for factory teams and even certian privateers in the past, that only adds to the intregue.

I figure it as this: Either Audi doesn't want us to know that the Sebring R15s are warmed over 2010 cars with minimal changes aside from performance balancing change, or that they have something in store that they don't want us to know about right now. They obviously have a motive for not talking about the R15 except in passing at the moment.

Whatever is or isn't going on, obviously, Audi doesn't want us to know what's going on here, whatever their motives are, even if nothing is going on.

[Tim the Grey]

For Crying Out Loud, give it a rest will you? I have now lost the will to live!
There will be an Audi at Sebring. Anything else, may, or may not be, what we have seen before.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Who the hell are Kirsten and Rob?!

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Who the hell are Kirsten and Rob?!

Ditto to that.

DK

[TWK]

This just in.

Audi Presse,
Ingolstadt, Deutschland
1 Januar 2011

Zur sofortigen Veröffentlichung

Audi AG hat heute bekannt gegeben, dass nichts los ist.

Das ist alles

[TWK]

But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that Audi intended to run updated R15s in the ALMS this year until AoA and Audi AG infighting (AoA wanting Audi AG to pay for much of the program) killed it.

That's completely wrong. Full-season ALMS entry has always been funded by Audi North America, and Audi NA has not had any intention to do so since the 2008 season. Standing corporate policy is not "infighting." There was never a time when a 2011 ALMS program of any kind was approved by Audi NA, as has always been required. There was a daydream by Audi Sport. Nothing more.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by TWK

This just in.

Well, good for them. Meanwhile, VW seems to be facing yet another scandal and this time it's in the motorsport department...

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, good for them. Meanwhile, VW seems to be facing yet another scandal and this time it's in the motorsport department...

Anything to do with the Argentina-Chile-Argentina Rally?