Formula Nippon 2007

[chunterer]

Could it be on the verge of returning to the gai-jin heydey of the late 80's early 90's, when there were lots of promising drivers joining the Japanese hotshots?

[Öbus]

Originally Posted by META4

formula nippon has always been strong and with the new car who appeared last year it braught a new dynamic in this championship

i believe it is a good deal for European drivers to come over japan because they can earn good living by racing Formula Nippon and Super GT without bringing any (big) money which is the opposite of GP2 where you need to bring some huge amount of money

also japanese mentality is probably also diferent than european as i do not think in Europe Wirdheim would have had a second chance after a quite disapointing first season in formula Nippon...

Wirdheim’s season last year in FN wasn’t as bad as the final result in the ranking shows if you take in consideration that he was the only driver in the series how didn’t combine the FN assault with Super GT. Loic Duval for example was already familiar with all the tracks they raced on in FN due to pre season testing with Honda in the GT series. For Wirdheim most of the tracks including Suzuka was completely new experience’s and the only track he tested on preseason was Motegi . (He didn’t do any Friday testing with Jaguar 2004 due to heavy raining) Without testing and racing in Super GT he was just hanging around for more than one month between at least two races which isn’t god for a race driver. Wirdheim was the guy how scored all the points (13) for the team during the season and Ide how was runner up in the series the year before with Impul, didn’t score at all and neither did Hiranaka in the first four races for the team. I think that the Honda engine last year wasn’t as powerful as the Toyota engine. Furthermore it seems that the team was struggling with the setup and was confronted with some huge problems in the end of the season. If you look at the qualifying performance it even get worse in the end of the season and I think it was only Wirdheim’s impressive race craft how saved the team from complete disaster. Hopfully both Wirdheim, Honda and the team is stronger for this upcoming season.

[META4]

Ide @ Arting ? i got a diferent information

have a look on this page (japanese) http://minolta.exblog.jp/

written
Team A : Treluyer/Matsuda
Team B : Motoyama/Krumm

and i do not believe that Honda engine was less powerfull than Toyota as Arta Autobacs managed to set up a couple of pole position last season ...

maybe the reason is just Dandelion is not an "official" Honda Team ... like Arta Autobacs and Nakajima...

[Obizzz]

At the beginning of the season the Honda engine was clearly inferior. The new engine introduced later evened up things but Dandelion got them very late since they were not an "official" team as you say so they didn't have time to test them properly.

[META4]

Then Well done Wirdheim , even if his best result he got it was at the second race of the seaon , he finished 2nd in Suzuka behind Duval and in front of Treluyer...

but well i hope for him and for the all the peoples involved he will be able to battle for the championship during the coming season , that would be very good

any news about Richard Lyons and even Tora Takagi?

[SALEEN S7R]

Any idea as to what kind of power outputt the top engines are producing? I remember at the beginning of 2006 a figure of 550bhp was being thrown about. Now seeing that the engines have been developed I would imagine they are fairly close to GP2 level?

[chunterer]

I thought it was more than that as they are effectively IRL engines aren't they? Those chuck out about 650hp or so.

[META4]

I still believe around 550Hp

just remember Formula Nippon is not IRL budget...

[Öbus]

Originally Posted by META4

Ide @ Arting ? i got a diferent information
maybe the reason is just Dandelion is not an "official" Honda Team ... like Arta Autobacs and Nakajima...

Head on nail!

[Öbus]

Originally Posted by META4

I still believe around 550Hp

just remember Formula Nippon is not IRL budget...

Head on nail "secondo"!

[META4]

so what about Motoyama then Obus??? is he retiring after his long career in formula nippon and his multiple titles???

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I thought it was more than that as they are effectively IRL engines aren't they? Those chuck out about 650hp or so.

Yes but in order to help reduce costs the engines were de tuned to around 550bhp for the start of the 2006 season. If now people are saying the engines have been tuned up a little it surely means they are hitting around 575-600bhp? Thats pretty close to GP2 which is producing around 625bhp.

[META4]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Now seeing that the engines have been developed I would imagine they are fairly close to GP2 level?

ok i reckon If the engine is tuned up to 575hp/600hp it is close to GP2 but you still need to consider the Lola Monocoque and from that point of view we are far from GP2 level...

[SALEEN S7R]

Are we? The Lola that races in Formula Nippon is very similar to that of the old F3000 car, in fact its really a evolution of it. There was nothing wrong with the old Lola that ran in F3000 a few years ago, it was the engine that was the biggest problem. I would rate the Lola chassis in Formula Nippon as high as the Dallara in GP2. Lola are IMO the worlds best specalist chassis constructor. It would be interesting to see which chassis would go faster if both had identical engines. As it is I think national pride may be colouring both our judgement a little at the moment.

As you can see from the following link the Formula Nippon chassis is very advanced too. Formula Nippon has choosen to stick with a lower front wing though by the looks of things, as well as a 3 plane rear wing. Unlike GP2 which changed to a 2 element rear wing last year in order to make the cars slower as well as making it harder to find setups. http://www.f-nippon.co.jp/mk/index.html One important thing to remember is that unlike GP2 Formula Nippon isnt just a feeder series for F1, its also a alternative in much the same way as Champcar or the IRL is. A driver can have a good professional career in Formula Nippon/Super GT.

[META4]

"Lola are IMO the worlds best specalist chassis constructor" it is always funny to hear British peoples talking about theirs abilities...


i do not follow you in the idea that formula nippon is similar to GP2... if you ask to any driver what would he choose between Formula Nippon and GP2 ... guess what will he choose?...

European drivers are not coming to japan because of the level of competition... maybe for the money they can get to race but i believe if they had the choice they would prefer to stay in Europe

all depends if you think on a short or long term career...

[Öbus]

...and 90 minutes of hard, fair and competitive racing. There was a suggestion from some of the Japanese drivers last year that the organization should implement servo as a steering aid but that was rejected by the FN organization.

[SALEEN S7R]

GP2 is for aspiring young drivers who still want to make it into F1, or drivers who have made it into F1 and have basically been kicked back out but who are still sniffing around hoping they will someday make it back, ie Pizzonia and Pantano. A driver cannot make a professional living in GP2, in GP2 you pay for your seat. For drivers like Pizzonia and Pantano thats ok though as they already have money. The others in the series wont stay long, they will normally either make it into F1 or fail and go into Champcar/IRL/DTM. Some go to Formula Nippon to make a living driving professionally for manufacturer backed teams.

Basically GP2 is for young talent or guys still trying to break back into F1 whereas Formula Nippon is for professional drivers and some up and coming young stars. Really Formula Nippon has the same status as Champcar in Japan and the cars I think you will find are as quick as a GP2 car. Yes they have a bit less power but I think you will find they have more areodynamic grip.

[META4]

yes Obus ... you get one point on that one

Do not misunderstand me i am not trying to say formula nippon is a bad serie... and i totally agree with you SALEEN on "Basically GP2 is for young talent or guys still trying to break back into F1 whereas Formula Nippon is for professional drivers and some up and coming young stars."

[META4]

the only problem in japan is the risk to be dropped from the European radar
i reckon all the european drivers who came in japan are trying hard to keep their drive... but drivers who go to japan have to consider to stay in japan until the end of their career it will be difficult to move into any other serie , look at Richard Lyons...


but maybe we should come back at the main subject of this thread

[Öbus]

Originally Posted by META4

European drivers are not coming to japan because of the level of competition... maybe for the money they can get to race but i believe if they had the choice they would prefer to stay in Europe

all depends if you think on a short or long term career...

There are some really strong European drivers in FN like Treluyer (second after Satosan in Macau F3 2001) Lotterer (runner up in the German F3 championship 2001? And third driver for Jaguar) Wirdheim (Pole Macau F3 2001 and F3000 champion 2003) Loic Duval (pole in Macau 2005 and race winner in European F3). And then you have some god and competitive Japanese drivers like Matsuda and Kaneshi (german F3 champion 2001? before guys like for example Gary Paffet) so it’s not to bad even if you compare with Flavios “managmentfeederseries”.

[Jackman]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

GP2 is for aspiring young drivers who still want to make it into F1, or drivers who have made it into F1 and have basically been kicked back out but who are still sniffing around hoping they will someday make it back, ie Pizzonia and Pantano. A driver cannot make a professional living in GP2, in GP2 you pay for your seat. For drivers like Pizzonia and Pantano thats ok though as they already have money.

I think the two drivers you quote might disagree with you.

[META4]

Originally Posted by Öbus

There are some really strong European drivers in FN like Treluyer (second after Satosan in Macau F3 2001) Lotterer (runner up in the German F3 championship 2001? And third driver for Jaguar) Wirdheim (Pole Macau F3 2001 and F3000 champion 2003) Loic Duval (pole in Macau 2005 and race winner in European F3). And then you have some god and competitive Japanese drivers like Matsuda and Kaneshi (german F3 champion 2001? before guys like for example Gary Paffet) so it’s not to bad even if you compare with Flavios “managmentfeederseries”.

i completly agree with you the level of drivers is pretty good in japan , the fact is teams have theirs own sponsors so they can choose good drivers and even pay them , there a few drivers who are paying in formula nippon (average or bad drivers) so that means there are a lot of very good drivers

but from a technical point of view it is not as high as European standard like GP2 , all my respect to japanese peoples who are involved in this serie if you consider the fact as formula nippon is a National serie whereas GP2 is an european serie racing ...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by META4

i completly agree with you the level of drivers is pretty good in japan , the fact is teams have theirs own sponsors so they can choose good drivers and even pay them.

From a technical point of view it is not as high as European standard like GP2, all my respect to japanese peoples who are involved in this serie if you consider the fact as formula nippon is a National serie whereas GP2 is an european serie racing ...

This potential drivers list is certainly of a good standard and makes me think the series is headed back towards the lofty heights of the late 80's early 90's when you had a dozen or so decent drivers coming across from Europe or even from the States keeping their careers alive and maybe, just maybe getting into F1 via a slightly different route. The likes of Frentzen, Cheever, Krosnoff, AG-S, Martini, Irvine, Carcassci, Danielsson, Apicella, DLR (even Herbert and Schuey with the odd drive) really got peoples attention because they all had at least reasonable reputations as drivers. The success helped attract others and made it a viable option.

Then the CART surge of the late 90's with JV's, Zanardi's and Montoya's successes in getting across to F1 arguably surpassed Nippon as the place to be if you wanted to get to F1 away from the mainstream European ladder so to speak. I would hazard a guess that if CART hadn't have become so strong, those 3 would have done Nippon instead?

I think you're right about the comparison between Nippion and GP2. I suspect the cars are similar on pace but whereas Nippon used to be significanty faster than its F3000 cousin, the current GP2 is probably on the a simialr perfromance level.

[META4]

it is quite funny when you see drivers like Nakajima and Hirate getting full drive paid by Toyota in GP2 , that means even in japan peoples do not consider formula nippon as a F1 racing serie feeder

would be good if some drivers like Alx Danielson ,Jose Maria Lopez or Franck Perrera could get drive in nippon this season even if we need to keep in mind it is a japanese serie so done for japanese drivers...

[SALEEN S7R]

Formula Nippon a Japaneese series for Japaneese drivers? Partly yes, but as has been said the grid is full of International talent. Formula Nippon is no more a Japaneese series for Japaneese drivers than GP2 is a European series for European drivers. IMO.