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Old 7 Aug 2007, 06:54 (Ref:1983133)   #51
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by John Clucas
Re spec chassis. By and large high aero series spoil racing,. High drag, low downforce series enhance it. Which is why Caterhams/Formula Fords/ and Karts/ Formula Vee etc produce outstanding racing.
Well, we agree on that - doesn't mean that you have to have a spec chassis though.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 07:43 (Ref:1983159)   #52
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And when does it get half decent? When it rains - and the driver comes into the equation!
not true. there's been a number of f3 races this year in the uk at least that have been great fun to watch. the difference is that you just have to know who to watch, because it's the skill of the driver that counts. any old billy can't just overtake. if you haven't got the skill and vision to overtake, you can't - shown to be the case by the number of absurdly silly accidents this year. why can't these drivers overtake? they didn't do fford before coming into f3.
naturally there's some exceptions. some (like gonzalez this year, duran last year) just have the skill and vision. most quite rightly just have to learn. and why learn in a series with silly wings and barge boards that are going to cost you a fortune?
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 07:46 (Ref:1983161)   #53
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Originally Posted by andy97
Well, we agree on that - doesn't mean that you have to have a spec chassis though.
I'd agree with that if the regs were such that the advantage to be gained by the chassis designer was less than that by the driver. That would be difficult without a very restrictive set of design rules. Formula Ford does it quite well, as do V8's in Australia - and both produce very good racing. However it would be difficult to do that and maintain the "cutting edge" image of Formula One. Personally it wouldn't really bother me (it doesn't bother the Australians or the Americans) so long as we got real racing back.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 08:02 (Ref:1983169)   #54
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Originally Posted by bella
not true. there's been a number of f3 races this year in the uk at least that have been great fun to watch. the difference is that you just have to know who to watch, because it's the skill of the driver that counts. any old billy can't just overtake. if you haven't got the skill and vision to overtake, you can't - shown to be the case by the number of absurdly silly accidents this year. why can't these drivers overtake? they didn't do fford before coming into f3. ?

F3 does produce some good races - Monza is usually good because of the massive wide straights. Spa too. But far too many are processional affairs, mainly because of the aero effects. Wouldn't disagree with the last point - but it's still much more difficult to overtake in F3 (or Formula Renault) than in FF - hence the accidents. And vastly more difficult in F1, even with a big performance advantage, as Alonso will testify after last weekend.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 08:32 (Ref:1983193)   #55
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do you not think it's just down to people not knowing how to overtake? even in the dull races there will be one or two moves from the usual suspects. f3 isn't f1 - the cars aero doesn't stop overtaking completely. that's more down to the circuits, like you say, spa and monza are better.

it's more difficult to overtake in f3, but either a smart driver or a proper racer will see when it's possible and not possible and make it stick either by being imaginative or being firm. it doesn't take long to work out what your car can do, and work out how you can make it do it. that's where being a good driver is different to being a bad driver.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 10:41 (Ref:1983275)   #56
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As I see it drivers who come out of karting into spec series really are not that good at overtaking...

Multichassis racing if well regulated will always provide better racing as the cars have different abilities - there may be one car thats super quick on the straight but turn in slow or medium turns another maybe the slower all round but on average the same pace overall, another car maybe great in the turns but slow on the fast bits - but again giving the same result - this all gives good racing and of course overtaking.

In a spec series the fastest driver (with the best crew) starts at the front and unless he throws it off or the car breaks he will win the race.

As I said before big aero does not cripple overtaking if properly regulated ground effect floors are fitted - which is the one reason GP2 is good, but why can't F3 have a spec floor ("removes the engineering challenge they all cry" - but look at LMP's they have a spec floor and they are all different).
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 11:43 (Ref:1983327)   #57
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Anyone else not feeling the Fahrvergnügen in here?

So VW and Toyota are racing now in Euro F3 and Asia, is the plan 2008 for BF3? Which teams?

Great discussion, seems to run deep with more than a few people. As you were.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 12:00 (Ref:1983342)   #58
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It has been announced in Germany that a new Volkswagen F3 engine will race in the F3 Euroseries later this year.
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The engine will make its race debut at the Nurburgring round of the F3 Euro Series at the beginning of September.
Or, no plans for British F3 at all?
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 12:36 (Ref:1983366)   #59
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Not heard of any plans of it coming here but it must be a matter of time - we won't see the top spec Toyotas or Honda here any time soon
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 13:57 (Ref:1983432)   #60
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i think the interesting thing about f3 is the fact that each branch of the series is completely different. you can have a same broad specification, but still have a considerable amount of variation in cars, tecchie bits, and engines. and then they all come together once or twice a year for events like macau and zandvoort.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 14:23 (Ref:1983446)   #61
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Originally Posted by bella
i think the interesting thing about f3 is the fact that each branch of the series is completely different. you can have a same broad specification, but still have a considerable amount of variation in cars, tecchie bits, and engines. and then they all come together once or twice a year for events like macau and zandvoort.
Yes it does make it technically interesting - but does not add anything on the race track. Indeed it detracts because it means that drivers in the weaker teams might as well not turn up.

A case in point is Duran whom you mention. He looked the business in National Class and (to my surprize) very ordinary when he moved up. What about Esteban Guerierri or Asmer. How would they all compare in the same car? Frankly I have no real idea.

But back the aero thing. Lots of aero is always bad for overtaking because it reduces braking distances. Front wings are a particular nuisance because of the interference that the car in front causes - giving understeer onto the straight you hope to overtake on.

And F3 is particularly bad because it has a lot of aero, but (relatively) little power So its slow on the straignts and quick round the bends - reducing braking distance even further (or removing the need for braking at all).
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 14:35 (Ref:1983451)   #62
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Originally Posted by John Clucas
Indeed it detracts because it means that drivers in the weaker teams might as well not turn up.
same goes for formula renault. the weaker teams there may as well not turn up either.
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A case in point is Duran whom you mention. He looked the business in National Class and (to my surprize) very ordinary when he moved up.
i think that was an unfortunate team choice...
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What about Esteban Guerierri or Asmer. How would they all compare in the same car? Frankly I have no real idea.
guerrieri did quite well in the euroseries last year in a manor car..! asmer is an interesting one, especially considering his japanese f3 lack of form, but i don't think that's really a valid line of arguement specific to f3 - the same goes for say, someone driving a fortec frenault vs someone in a say, mark burdett car.
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And F3 is particularly bad because it has a lot of aero, but (relatively) little power So its slow on the straignts and quick round the bends - reducing braking distance even further (or removing the need for braking at all).
yeah, but the same goes for frenault on a slightly smaller scale.

i'm not saying anything you're saying doesn't stack up, but a sum total of none of it is specific to formula 3 versus formula renault or formula bmw.
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Old 7 Aug 2007, 17:35 (Ref:1983545)   #63
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same goes for formula renault. the weaker teams there may as well not turn up either. .
guerrieri did quite well in the euroseries last year in a manor car..! asmer is an interesting one, especially considering his japanese f3 lack of form, but i don't think that's really a valid line of arguement specific to f3 - the same goes for say, someone driving a fortec frenault vs someone in a say, mark burdett car.

yeah, but the same goes for frenault on a slightly smaller scale.
the difference is that there will always be differences between the quality of setup. But clearly if you have differences in the basic design of the car AND a team can add their own trick bits, it is inevitable that the differences will be much greater. So great that it's all but impossible to make sensible comparisons between drivers unless they are in the same team.

[QUOTE=bella]
i think that was an unfortunate team choice... .[/QUOTE

Nop - quite deliberate. Hitech are clearly going very well this year. Without knowing how this year's car differs from previous year's, I can't make a sensible judgement about Duran.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 07:23 (Ref:1983765)   #64
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Nope - quite deliberate. Hitech are clearly going very well this year. Without knowing how this year's car differs from previous year's, I can't make a sensible judgement about Duran.
Sorry, I agree with bella on that one, in fact I agree with everything she's said in this thread.

I don't know what magic Marko Asmer has wrought on Hitech this year, but the fact is that previously they had only ever won 3 races in total.

Duran, whom I rate highly like you, should have stayed with Roly Vincini, whom he respected and who had the ability to get the best out of him. The relationship with Hitech never gelled, for whatever reason.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 07:37 (Ref:1983769)   #65
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spider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridspider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They're running the engine this week in France. Is it behind closed doors?
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 08:18 (Ref:1983787)   #66
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Sorry, I agree with bella on that one, in fact I agree with everything she's said in this thread..
Sorry we'll just have to disagree. It seems to me that, at the front at least, we have a defacto one make (Dallara/Mercedes) championship, and previously had a similar situation before with Dallara/Mugen Honda.

While the other chassis and engines DOES add technical interest, it makes the class 3 times the cost it needs to be and seriously damages its credibility as a drivers championship. The downside, to me, far outweighs the upside.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 09:59 (Ref:1983878)   #67
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Sorry we'll just have to disagree. It seems to me that, at the front at least, we have a defacto one make (Dallara/Mercedes) championship, and previously had a similar situation before with Dallara/Mugen Honda.

While the other chassis and engines DOES add technical interest, it makes the class 3 times the cost it needs to be and seriously damages its credibility as a drivers championship. The downside, to me, far outweighs the upside.
If as you say F3 is a de facto one-make series, how does that damage its credibility as a drivers championship as compared to a de jure one-make series? IMO F3 is the only grounding for a driver with aspirations to F1, with all the one-make series being simply varieties of holding pattern. This is precisely because drivers get an opportunity to experiment with different components - suspension, aerodynamics, tyres - which is not possible in WSR or GP2 for example. Sadly, it's not as good an education as it used to be because track time has been curtailed in order to reduce costs. That is particularly the case in F3ES, and this, together with financial support by Mercedes for certain drivers, gives a misleading impression that F3ES is better value than BF3.

There's really no such thing as a drivers' championship. Even with "equal" equipment, the better teams will turn out better cars - GP2 being a good example. GP2 is a currently a less even playing field that F3ES or BF3, it seems to me.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 12:33 (Ref:1984011)   #68
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You're forgetting Formula Palmar Audi. That's about as equal as possible.

Anyway, back on topic, how effective do we expect the VW F3 engine to be? More of the same, awesome or useless?
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 12:38 (Ref:1984017)   #69
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Dont know, but it took the merc engine a few years to be competitive
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 14:28 (Ref:1984077)   #70
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If as you say F3 is a de facto one-make series, how does that damage its credibility as a drivers championship as compared to a de jure one-make series? IMO F3 is the only grounding for a driver with aspirations to F1, with all the one-make series being simply varieties of holding pattern. This is precisely because drivers get an opportunity to experiment with different components - suspension, aerodynamics, tyres - which is not possible in WSR or GP2 for example. Sadly, it's not as good an education as it used to be because track time has been curtailed in order to reduce costs. That is particularly the case in F3ES, and this, together with financial support by Mercedes for certain drivers, gives a misleading impression that F3ES is better value than BF3.

There's really no such thing as a drivers' championship. Even with "equal" equipment, the better teams will turn out better cars - GP2 being a good example. GP2 is a currently a less even playing field that F3ES or BF3, it seems to me.
Let's take that a point at a time.

Although the front is dominated by Dallara/Mercedes teams are allowed to change any component they like within F3 regs. So not all Dallara Mercedes are the same. Given that setup alone can make a vast difference anyway, the last thing you want to allow (if you want to maintain costs and have some semblance of a level playing field is to allow aero and suspension etc changes). As you imply there isn't such a thing as a driver's championship. Is that satisfactory when success in F3 is key to getting to F1 as you rightly state?!!

Re experimenting with different components - one make series such as Formula Renault offers almost all the adjustments a driver would call for, and a one-make F3 could, of course, so the same. Drivers don't alter the design of components, only engineers do that.

I can't comment about WSR or GP2 as a level playing field - we haven't raced there - but it's pretty clear that the playing field is far from level in Britain or Europe.

It really comes down to whether you are concerned about the best driver or the best team winning. Clearly if you are driver's supporter it will be the former, if a team's then it will be the latter.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 17:01 (Ref:1984188)   #71
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i think the interesting thing about f3 is the fact that each branch of the series is completely different. you can have a same broad specification, but still have a considerable amount of variation in cars, tecchie bits, and engines. and then they all come together once or twice a year for events like macau and zandvoort.
Fully agree - the only shame it the tyre situation. F3 with a single chassis would just be Palmer Audi wouldn't it - or IFM?

Aero does not spoil the racing, fact is F3 cars can overtake its just the drivers either don't know how (see bellas post re FFord), or don't have the balls. I've been banging on for some time about Grosjean and Gonzalez as super drivers because the can overtake! The reason F3 is quite dull racing wise is that the drivers are all very similar, with background in Karting then spec series.

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Drivers don't alter the design of components, only engineers do that.
Thats actually not 100% true a good driver should be able to work with the engineers to develop the car - an aero engineer doesn't improve the car on his own, nor does a data engineer, or a mechanical engineer, or a driver. They all work together to produce a result. Its the same way a driver does not set up a car but the whole team does.

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one make series such as Formula Renault offers almost all the adjustments a driver would call for
Again not true, as a good driver should find ways to move the car forward or areas where it could improve after a while of driving it. Cars I've raced rarely stay the same spec race to race as I find new ways to improve them and the other (faster) cars in the team.

The playing field in Motorsport will never be level, the closest you will ever get is FPA. Otherwise you need a clever driver and clever engineers. That doesn't cost a lot though if you do it right - theres a hell of a lot of very clever people floating round for pennies, a subscription to racecar engineering or similar will show you a few of them very quickly.

For a long time I've felt that an underfunded team with a strong driver, good mechanics and very clever engineers could do very well indeed in BF3.

So maybe the playing field is level when you start but with a Dallara Merc Hewland what chance do you stand against teams which have been running the same combo for years... but if you took a Lola-VW-Drexler/Pankl I think you could perform well for less money - plus you'd likely get very good engineering assistance from Lola
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 19:33 (Ref:1984307)   #72
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Fully agree - the only shame it the tyre situation. F3 with a single chassis would just be Palmer Audi wouldn't it - or IFM?

Aero does not spoil the racing, fact is F3 cars can overtake its just the drivers either don't know how (see bellas post re FFord), or don't have the balls. I've been banging on for some time about Grosjean and Gonzalez as super drivers because the can overtake! The reason F3 is quite dull racing wise is that the drivers are all very similar, with background in Karting then spec series.


Is it just a coincidence then that the series with least aero - like karting, Caterhams, Oz V8's, Nascar produce lots of overtaking and those with the most - like F3 and to an even greater extent F1 produce practically none. The drivers have all a similar background in karting. Course it isn't. Alonso (despite his current petulance) is a pretty good driver, and I don't believe for a second that Grosjean or Gonzales would do a better job in his car. I can't believe you do either.
[QUOTE=ss_collins]
Thats actually not 100% true a good driver should be able to work with the engineers to develop the car - an aero engineer doesn't improve the car on his own, nor does a data engineer, or a mechanical engineer, or a driver. They all work together to produce a result. Its the same way a driver does not set up a car but the whole team does. [/QUOTE

Perhaps not 100% - perhaps 99. In any case a wind tunnel costs several thousand pounds an HOUR to hire, so there is no liklihood of underfunded drivers and teams using them. But unfortunately well funded teams can...

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Again not true, as a good driver should find ways to move the car forward or areas where it could improve after a while of driving it. Cars I've raced rarely stay the same spec race to race as I find new ways to improve them and the other (faster) cars in the team.

But that is just set-up - not the sort of radical re-engineering that some F3 teams can afford.

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The playing field in Motorsport will never be level, the closest you will ever get is FPA. Otherwise you need a clever driver and clever engineers. That doesn't cost a lot though if you do it right - theres a hell of a lot of very clever people floating round for pennies, a subscription to racecar engineering or similar will show you a few of them very quickly.

For a long time I've felt that an underfunded team with a strong driver, good mechanics and very clever engineers could do very well indeed in BF3.

We've worked with quite a lot of them - so we know about the talent out there. But unfortunately there are (very) talented engineers working in the top teams too. If it were that easy to beat the likes of Carlin (or ASm or ...) on a modest budget, someone would have got close to doing it. The only case I can think of is Robbie Kerr - and that was only because Courtney, who was much faster, decided to stall at the start, get injured and lose it (and Robbie did a good job).

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So maybe the playing field is level when you start but with a Dallara Merc Hewland what chance do you stand against teams which have been running the same combo for years... but if you took a Lola-VW-Drexler/Pankl I think you could perform well for less money - plus you'd likely get very good engineering assistance from Lola
But, assuming that the Lola, for example, is as good as the Dallara (which I'm quite prepared to accept) why is it any easier with that? You still have gather the data, but you do not have the years of engineering experience that you can pick up by running a Dallara and picking up some experience Dallara engineers. Getting that sort of knowledge costs a lot of money in testing - you can't do it that on the cheap!

There was little wrong with the concept of FPA - it produced F3 performance on a much smaller budget. We could debate about why it didn't succeed in it's original form - but it certainly wasn't because there was anything wrong with the principles.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 20:27 (Ref:1984348)   #73
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Perhaps not 100% - perhaps 99. In any case a wind tunnel costs several thousand pounds an HOUR to hire, so there is no liklihood of underfunded drivers and teams using them. But unfortunately well funded teams can...
funny then that Formula Vees end up in wind tunnels... again something that can be had for less than percieved wisdom tells you, there is a Dallara F3 tunnel model available for hire (no need for the big cost of building one) and the FSWT at MIRA is £5k for a 6 hours ish...

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But that is just set-up - not the sort of radical re-engineering that some F3 teams can afford.
No major reworking and development... (whole new body coming next year)

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We've worked with quite a lot of them - so we know about the talent out there. But unfortunately there are (very) talented engineers working in the top teams too. If it were that easy to beat the likes of Carlin (or ASm or ...) on a modest budget, someone would have got close to doing it.
Indeed so if you cant beat the best in the world at engineering Dallaras with a Dallara best try something else - another chassis perhaps. The Lola which I suspect is every bit as good as the Dallara would be the logical option, why is it easier - how much help will Dallara give you to beat other Dallaras? how much help will Lola give you to help beat Dallaras?

Read Carroll Smith, Valkenburgh etc.. its been borne out time after time, if you can't beat the masters playing it thier way play it a different way and you may get to the same place faster of better.

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Getting that sort of knowledge costs a lot of money in testing - you can't do it that on the cheap!
well it depends how you spec your test programme. Dallara testing tends to focus on developing the drivers or possibly tyres, now that requires hours and hours of track time, on circuits. But Millbrook, MIRA, Longcross and the one in Paris that Pug use for the 908LM are dirt cheap, and let you do aero testing, laps, shakedowns, skidpads (if you aint used one and you don't know why you aint get reading!) for a fraction of the cost. Do you always need new tyres to develop the car?

I urge anyone vaguely involved in motor racing, as a driver, engineer, father of either etc to read 'the unfair advantage' by mark donohue his test programme would still stand up today I reckon (bar aero - for that read racing in the rain by John Horsman)


FPA - I'm a huge fan of it actually - it does prove the driver and at a good point and if I was advising a driver where to go it would be first season or 2 in vee to learn the tracks and about racing, and getting the licence up - the cheapest way to do it in a open wheeler btw, then a season or 2 in UKFF, then a season or 2 in FPA, then a season or 2 in F3... a long gestation perhaps but you'll have a very very sorted driver who will have a long pro career.


Only thing thats missing in FPA is car development - a suggestion I made a while back was to give each driver a 5k budget to develop the car - now they could spend that any way they please but boy would they learn (plus its too little for them to do too much so the cars can always go back to the standard spec at the end of the year)

On the topic of F3 engines - they are too expensive, mainly down to the restrictor, I think restricting fuel flow would be a cheaper way to go or adopting Super 2000 engine specs.
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 20:35 (Ref:1984360)   #74
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
just having a re read of this (great debate btw) and I just wanted to come back to something said earlier

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Even if you consider the vast costs of F1 ( and very high ones of F3) as acceptable (which I obviously don't), surely you can't be happy with the lack of racing. When the worlds premier formula produces pretty much the worlds most boring racing (if it can really be called that) something has gone seriously wrong.
See my piece on the GP2/08 in this months Racecar Engineering, the real secret to big slicks n wings cars overtaking is ground effect floors - if you got on you can overtake - its that simple - F1 needs a spec ground effect centre section and a restriction on winglets...
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Old 8 Aug 2007, 21:10 (Ref:1984405)   #75
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Originally Posted by ss_collins
just having a re read of this (great debate btw) and I just wanted to come back to something said earlier



See my piece on the GP2/08 in this months Racecar Engineering, the real secret to big slicks n wings cars overtaking is ground effect floors - if you got on you can overtake - its that simple - F1 needs a spec ground effect centre section and a restriction on winglets...
That doesn't really address the main problem. If you have high downforce you have short braking distances. And, however good the driver, the shorter the braking distance the more difficult it is to overtake.

Indeed, as you probably know, there is a strong school of thought that suggests you are better generating downforce through ground effects rather than wings - at least then you don't you don't get the issue of understeer caused by disturbing the airflow over the front wing.

But in the final analysis to get sensible amounts of overtaking you need long braking zones and that either means vast straights or reduced downforce. F1 has gone for the long straights at new circuits - but that is an expensive route and consignes circuits like Monaco to history as far as racing is concerned. In F3 A decent driver can defend circuits like Brands Indy and Knockhill from now til Christmas without giving a following driver a sniff - however good.

But back to Lola, I suspect they have taken to Germany because to compete with the likes of Carlin or ASM would cost too much money - even if their car is, in its standard form, basically as good as a standard Dallara. It's a sensible move because success there will allow them to attract more teams and drivers, and hence data, so they ultimately may take on Dallara in GB or Europe. But it will cost someone a lot of money. Which is why F3 costs 3 times as much as Formula Renault.
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