Driver No1 & No2

[ljakse]

While I have many times stated that I don't have a problem with team orders even when they are as ridiculous as they've got at Ferrari (they are a team, and it's their choice), I have also sad that I will never understand a driver who extends his contract with No2 status.
I mean, you drive for years hoping you'll get a chance to be a Formula One WDC, and then you sign you'll never do it!!!
I agree that a (more or less) young driver when given a chance to drive in a great team, alongside more experienced and already proven driver, should accept No2 status. But, once his contract expires, what is it that can make him sign extension with the same status???
The way I see it, there are just two options:
1. he realized he can't drive, and accepts whatever is offered
2. he realized he is as good as he hoped and he goes for the top.
What do you think?




P.S. Inspired by http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlin...17181917.shtml

[Tiptop]

Yes I completely agree why does Rubens want to be No 2 ?
He says that he is in a top flight team with the chance to win races (assuming Michael has problems)

He's also holding out to be No1 when Michael retires....although I think plenty of other drivers on the grid would do a better job.

Long ago I lost a lot of interest in F1 when we have No1 drivers being made to look good with an inadequate or very obedient No2 in the team!

Senna....v.....prost *sigh* seems so long ago......

[esorniloc]

Well are there really that many better drives out there for Rubens, than to have the 2nd best car in F1? Isn't that still better than say the number 1 drive at Renault?

[Adam43]

Although this year, there is far more success in the no.2 Ferrari than elsewhere! And I think this is the reason why Rubens wants to be at Ferrari. Also their resources are almost endless and he ends up driving the best car (and for Ferrari!).

Also (a little off topic?), while there is clear no.1 and no.2 I don't think that has made any difference to the results. More significant than any preferential treatment Michael gets (and Ferrari can do what they want - they didn't force Rubens to sign) Michael is head and shoulders above Rubens. Although I do concede that on those odd occasions when Rubens has had to let Michael past it is a shame (and this is partly why I am not a 21st century Ferrari fan).

[Super Tourer]

A good example being Irvine who moved from No2 at Ferrari to No1 at Jaguar and and lot of good it did him from a career viewpoint - financially, however it was a 'good' move.

In truth it's only the real WDC contenders of the future who wouldn't sign up to be No2 to MS - Alonso, Kimi, JPM and Button.

I'm sure any of the others on the grid would sign up for Ferrari tomorrow, whatever the contract, for someone like Heidfeld what good is being No1 at Jordan and facing 16th on the grid as a 'good day', when you can be on row 2 and get on the podium as a matter of course?

[fog_shadow]

fact ==> MS and RB drive for Ferrari
speculation ==> RB has a "move over" clause in his contract
speculation ==> Kimi, Alonso, Moaner.. were ever approached by Ferrari

glad i could clear that up.

shadow

[gert]

Originally posted by fog_shadow
fact ==> MS and RB drive for Ferrari
speculation ==> RB has a "move over" clause in his contract
speculation ==> Kimi, Alonso, Moaner.. were ever approached by Ferrari

glad i could clear that up.

shadow

fact: MS and RB drive for Ferrari
speculation: RB has a "move over" clause in his contract
fact: at times, RB is/was asked to move over

[ljakse]

Some of you are missing my point.
Yes, it would be better for Heidfield to be No2 at Ferrari at this moment, but, would he sign a contract extension that would make him No2 for good???
When Rubens joined Ferrari everybody (including myself) thought it was a good move for him, though it was expected he will have "that" treatment. And, Rubens proved he could be as fast, occasionally faster than Schumacher, even though he didn't have the whole team around him. And that was great - for as long as he didn't sign extension for that.
And then he nice&slow started falling back. I wouldn’t take Irvine in consideration ‘coz I think Rubens is much better driver.
On the other hand,

Originally posted by esorniloc
Well are there really that many better drives out there for Rubens, than to have the 2nd best car in F1? Isn't that still better than say the number 1 drive at Renault?

I think it is. Renault is getting better every year. Alonso had waaaaay more success in eyes of fans than Rubens. And, Alonso is aiming at WDC in near future. What is Rubens aiming for? Schumacher’s retirement? Does anybody think Rubens will be given No1 status at Ferrari?? Or in any other ‘decent’ team??? I don’t, but I do believe he could have been in a good team by now if he left Ferrari.

Originally posted by gert
fact: MS and RB drive for Ferrari
speculation: RB has a "move over" clause in his contract
fact: at times, RB is/was asked to move over

fact: RB moved over

So let’s not start that ‘how do you know what is written in his contract?’ routine, OK? It doesn’t matter – he behaves as if it’s made very clear he has to move over.

[Adam43]

I see what your saying ljakse. With regard to RB's decision to extend the contract I think he chose to sign there are a couple of questions that needed to be considered:
Was there another opportunity in a half decent team?
Would the pay be as good?

I guess the answer was No to one or both of these.

[climb]

Originally posted by Tiptop
Yes I completely agree why does Rubens want to be No 2 ?
...

Maybe 10 million $ per year are enough?

[ljakse]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Was there another opportunity in a half decent team?
Would the pay be as good?

I guess the answer was No to one or both of these.

I guess we get to the crucial moment here .
We don't know about his opportunities somewhere else, but we are (almost) sure about money. And that brings us back to basics of my question.
Can money make you forget your WDC dreams, or you siply realized you're not capable of winning it???
The link I gave quotes Montoya saying he'll rather go race karts. OK, nobody knows if he would really do that, but money can not be a problem after spending few years in smaller teams, and then two more in Ferrari (greed could be). So, leaving money aside, would you go drive for Jaguar hoping they'll make a good car, or you stay at Ferrari collecting Schumacher's leftovers, for big bucks, but without hope.

[climb]

Irvine's experience could say something about that, provided his switch was not voluntary.

[climb]

.. I mean, what kinda hope can you have if you leave a prime team to go to a backfield one?
Unless you have concrete elements of optimism, it's clearthat you have no hope anyways.

[Gt_R]

I fast-read everything and the arguments weren't really new.

Firstly, let me stress that Rubens didn't put his signature on a contract which says "I, Rubens Barrichello, hereby pledge to be number 2 driver of Ferrari, working for the favour of Michael...promising never to challenge him in WDC".
He didn't sign it when he joined, and he didn't sign it when he extended his contract.

And perhaps that's the reason why many critics are confused why RB will do that...because he didn't do it and critics are wondering over something which didn't exist.

Ferrari did practice occassional team orders in favour of MS. But there's a difference between using team orders, which happen to be in favour of MS, and Ferrari giving RB a "No.2" contract from the start.

Ferrari's policy is simple..Number 1 and Number 2 drivers are dictated by nothing but the "stop watch", not a stupid contract signed 2 years before. And in that case, there is simply NO DOUBT that Michael is the superior driver, and holds the team's highest hopes of getting the WDC, and hence enjoy the focus of the team. And in any case, team orders were not implemented until one driver (which usually happens to be MS) had a clear lead over the other in WDC-standings, and in no cases was the leading driver in the championship made to give way to MS.

And people can nit-pick on preferential treatment...but unfortunately, again it is blown out of proportions.

Ferrari's main men, Todt and Brawn may share a special friendship with Michael, but that doesn't mean that RB's chances are unnecessarily compromised more than drivers from rival teams.

Ferrari gives BOTH RB and MS the same cars, the same parts, the same developements. RB isn't offered an inferior car, nor barred from new parts in a deliberate bid to slow him down so that MS isn't challenged.

And i would like to draw attention to how critics of Ferrari selectively opt to overlook the team preferential treatment rival teams impose.

Example 1. In 99/00 years, Newey attended races and worked almost exclusively with Mika Hakkinen, while DC was left alone to work with his own engineer...an arrangement not different from the much criticised Brawn's attention to MS's needs. This is publicly admitted by DC in an interview with F1 racing (IIRC, i'd go dig)

Example 2. Jacques Villeneuve had in his contract (revealed by DR) exclusive rights to demand priority use of the spare car. And F1 racing revealed that even up to 2000/01, JV enjoyed first use of new developement parts and engine upgrades which isn't available to his teammates.(as i've quoted in a similar thread a long time ago)

Example 3. Renault...or rather under the Benetton name..what's the treatment Wurz recieve from Benetton in his final year for the team? He got a race car which is denied upgraded parts for the 2nd half of the season, and made to look like trash besides his teammate. Only in one race did Flavio do him a favour and gave him his teammate's up-to-date car (Sepang?)

Example 4.Remember DC at Indy 03? And not only that...but also once in Spa for Mika, and a few other races (one of them in Silverstone)...usually in changable weather conditions. DC is made to sacrifice his race/position/strategy to maximize his teammate's chances... In Indy, he's made to run on unsuitable tyres just to give Mclaren the data so that they can see when's the best time to call Kimi in to make a switch of tyres, totally screwing up DC's race. Same for the Spa incident, where DC is forced to run one more lap on dries so that the team is free to bring Mika in for the important change...result? DC slide and lost a chunk of time/positions. And it's not rare such incidents occur in Mclaren that DC's made to sacrifice his race for teammates, as early as midseasons.

Example 5. Minardi..haha..this one is understandable..Minardi just don't have the resources to provide both drivers with equal cars.

The point i'm trying to say is that many incidents in other teams are conveniently glossed over and blame be exaggerated in Ferrari. Yes, RB had received some unfair decisions, but otherwise, many accusations levelled at Ferrari is nothing but made up. The team doesn't deliberately choose to conpromise RB, and that if Ferrari simply just wants team orders in MS favour, why isn't RB 2nd to MS in all 5 races this season in a car insisted to be far superior to the rest? Did Ferrari give RB a contract to not challenge Button or Montoya?

Quite simply, in a good team, in a good car, more often than not RB can't pose a threat to MS not because of team orders.

[Don K]

Originally posted by gert
fact: MS and RB drive for Ferrari
speculation: RB has a "move over" clause in his contract
fact: at times, RB is/was asked to move over

Fact: Many teams have been asking their drivers to move over.
Fact: Only Ferrari/Barrichello have been brave enough by making this visible, by delaying this until after the last corner and doing it in plain view.
Fact: Team orders have always been tolerated (connived?), unless Ferrari (or Barrichello?) chose to make them very visible.

[Adam43]

I think we all know this situation at Ferrari and whether you agree with it or not is (I stand to be corrected) the point of the thread.

That is knowing all this was RB wise to extend his contract?

It all depends on the other options really? If he had a chance to lead say Williams then perhaps not? but did he have this option and where is the line (if there is one).

[Gt_R]

We all know "this" situation at Ferrari..but what each individual think the extent of this situation is different - and that directly affects the point of this thread.

IMO, RB is wise to extend his contract...he had a good car and a good environment, as good as he could get from any other teams (looking at the examples i quoted), to get race wins and opportunities to beat rival teams/drivers. There are team orders, but such orders are in every team, and those team orders are not necessarily set against RB. RB could with his performance turn the orders against MS, but he couldn't.

RB didn't sign a contract to run as MS's assistant, as what other drivers allege. Hence he knew it, unlike other drivers who assume, and made the decision to sign.

The only thing that is the problem is not the over-exaggerated "contract", but rather the fact that it is extremely difficult to beat MS in the same car. To have a shot of winning the championship from MS, a driver needs something different from MS - in short a better car/team than what MS had in his disposal. If ever a driver finds himself in a favourable position relative to MS to win the WDC, Ferrari would similarly apply orders for MS to assist the better driver...just like what Ferrari did in '99.

[fog_shadow]

RB is an adult and i'm sure he knows what's best for him. suppose he didn't sign for ferrari and he moved to another team. suppose he chose the next best team, would his chance of getting a WDC or a win or a podium finish be any better then it is at Ferrari? i think hell i'm pretty sure NOT!!!.

add to that the $$$ factor and that he gets the best driver for a team-mate whom he can learn from, and i'll say he's made the best decision possible.

fact ==> 2004 thus far RB has not been hampered by the team. he like all others on the track have just been well and truely beaten by the best driver there is today. like it or lump it.

shadow

[freud]

A few of my brazilian friends are very candid about Rubens i.e. that he has sold his 'soul', blah blah..

I, for one, am quite surprised to see Rubens accepting such an status for an extended period. First few years, I could understand the logic... but now that MS/Ferrari has had the success, Rubens should've been more assertive with the Ferrari management with regards to his role. Its a pity and a shame to see a driver of his caliber doing what he's doing at Ferrari. He's not a 'racer' but I think he's a very talented and underestimated driver. Its just not wise for him to remain so passive. If he exerts his influence accordingly and also challenges MS at least 'sometimes' imho he can surprise us all.

Also, lets not just blame Rubens for the contract fiasco. If it wasnt Rubens, then someone else would've sold his soul as well. Ferrari management is to blame. They fail to realize that they have become the laughing stock of the entire pitlane and even though they are winning, its not exciting the mainstream. There is no myth anymore, its just business as usual.

[fog_shadow]

to challenge for first, he needs to be at least second. pure and simple mathematics. how often have we seen that happen? at spain this year he was challenging, but just could not match Michael, even with the altered pit stop strategy.

[Gt_R]

Indeed...to challenge for first, he needs to be at least second. And in Sepang and Imola, he's completely out performed by his teammate AND couldn't even secure second.

Rubens in Austria 02 showed that he won't hesitate to publicly frown if he's treated badly, and hence, if a contract does exist to make him second fiddle to MS, i doubt he would still go around declaring his desire to fight for WDC this year, and desire for a contract extention last year and made to look a fool later on. The fact is simple, Rubens signed because there's no such clause in the contract.

There's a difference between a team practicing team orders over the course of a season for their best chance of WDC/WCC, and a team which stipulates right from the start for the next couple of years who gets A-class treatment and who not... And i think some people are getting mixed up.

Quote:"They fail to realize that they have become the laughing stock of the entire pitlane"

Good imagination there...because the last time i saw the team bosses on, they really don't have much reason to laugh anymore.

If Ferrari/RB can be criticised for such an allegation, this question can simply be asked to DC too, why does he remain in Mclaren and still wants to despite being made a 2nd class citizen?

The situation at Ferrari is over-played by critics. RB didn't make a wrong choice for a team, and neither did Ferrari make a wrong choice for a driver.

[fog_shadow]

GT_R,
couldn't have said it better myself.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Gt_R
If Ferrari/RB can be criticised for such an allegation, this question can simply be asked to DC too, why does he remain in Mclaren and still wants to despite being made a 2nd class citizen?

I'm not critisizing Ferrari at all, only Rubens, and critisizing DC? He is not worth it.

[Gt_R]

[Bononi]

Originally posted by freud
A few of my brazilian friends are very candid about Rubens i.e. that he has sold his 'soul', blah blah..

I would say 99% of brazilians think like this. It's embarassing for them after 3 world champions a cry-baby like that. And in addition, it's common sense there to think if you don't win, you don't mean a thing.

Originally posted by freud
I, for one, am quite surprised to see Rubens accepting such an status for an extended period. First few years, I could understand the logic... but now that MS/Ferrari has had the success, Rubens should've been more assertive with the Ferrari management with regards to his role. Its a pity and a shame to see a driver of his caliber doing what he's doing at Ferrari. He's not a 'racer' but I think he's a very talented and underestimated driver. Its just not wise for him to remain so passive. If he exerts his influence accordingly and also challenges MS at least 'sometimes' imho he can surprise us all.

Also, lets not just blame Rubens for the contract fiasco. If it wasnt Rubens, then someone else would've sold his soul as well. Ferrari management is to blame. They fail to realize that they have become the laughing stock of the entire pitlane and even though they are winning, its not exciting the mainstream. There is no myth anymore, its just business as usual.

Rubens keep saying that he will be given a chance to win the WDC. He keeps dreaming that Ferrari will give him the #1 status once TGF is gone. I don't know if he's just making scene to fool the brazilian crowd or he really believes in that.
I for one, believe in a TV ad he made years ago when he signed for Ferrari. In that ad, he played as a boy trying to star an ad for FIAT, and after the test the director said : "Sorry, but the german got the job..."