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Old 24 Nov 2021, 08:18 (Ref:4085237)   #301
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
2. Beckett's - one panel operator, three flag points (Beckett's In, Beckett's Centre and Beckett's Out). Panel is on the inside so driver's right about half way through the sequence. Controller is towards the final part of the sequence.

In any of those places, if one of the flag points goes yellow, the panel operator goes yellow too - usually at the same time - and the TV graphics go yellow too ("Yellow Flag Sector 1" for example). When the incident clears, *or* when race control instruct, *or* when race control do it themselves, the controller resets the signal, the graphics go "Green", and the race continues.
Greem - thanks for the narrative, really appreciated.

A couple of queries if I may?

Firstly - is it typical for the quantity or location of flag posts to change during an event? In Qatar, there were (IIRC) 26 posts in FP1, but by Qualy this was up to the 40s.


Secondly - in the situation you describe (M21, 22 & 23?)- it seems possible that the light panel may be yellow, but the only flag point that is yellow is after the light panel. If that is the case, is a driver deemed to have passed a yellow flag at the light panel line, or the flag point?

Part of my query is the recent BTCC meeting, where Butcher and Ingram (IIRC) were approaching a yellow flag. At the time, I argued in defence of Butcher taking the stance that racers will try and gain every advantage possible, and that he was not obligated to slow until they 'passed' the yellow flag. In recent days, my stance has changed a bit and I see that Ingram (slowing before the yellow) was actually taking the safer option.
The offences at Qatar cite drivers slowing because they could see Gasly as the correct thing to do (which I agree with). So from I personal opinion, I think I am now reaching the conclusion that whilst yellow flag is the primacy - any indication of a hazard should cause a driver to slow, and that should happen as soon as they are aware, not when the pass a fixed reference point.

I understand this makes the handling of any incidents trickier. A statement of fact would be the line perpendicular to the flag post across the track - but should drivers be allowed to race up to that point?
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 09:09 (Ref:4085242)   #302
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Greem might have other experiences but the only time i see posts changing during an event is when its the first time a circuit has been run.

Tbh even i was suprised the points changed in Qatar.

Only other time is for specialist events like Trucks or speed events that are run on circuits, for obvious reasons!
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 09:58 (Ref:4085246)   #303
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Could the reason that the number was increased be that FP1 was, I believe, during daylight hours but the rest of meeting was held under floodlights and the FIA deemed it necessary to increase the number of post to gain better visibility.
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Old 24 Nov 2021, 10:44 (Ref:4085252)   #304
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I was going at full speed along a straight at well over 100mph and overtook a car that was probably doing 30mph max as the drivers engine had just expired. It just so happened that there was a yellow being waved towards the next corner and I was hauled before the COC. Luckily after they viewed the cctv it was proved what had actually happened. In the days of club racing before decent recordings I would have had a stamp on my licence or a fine or both. Now with cameras virtually pointing everywhere including onboard things are a lot more difficult to argue against.
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Old 25 Nov 2021, 23:35 (Ref:4085470)   #305
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So with annual budgets and resources dwindling, would you prioritize the drivers or the constructors title?

RB have experience focusing on one driver, Merc in my opinion less so, so operationally this may be difficult for them to implement at this stage?

But can they trust Bottas to deliever what is needed and moreso why would Ham want them to?

Surely the teams have a strategy in place so I would presume a choice has been made right?

For me, for selfish reasons i hope both teams prioritize the drivers title. Entertainment wise i would like to see the two drivers sort it out themselves.

What would you do?
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 03:57 (Ref:4085494)   #306
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
So with annual budgets and resources dwindling, would you prioritize the drivers or the constructors title?

RB have experience focusing on one driver, Merc in my opinion less so, so operationally this may be difficult for them to implement at this stage?

But can they trust Bottas to deliever what is needed and moreso why would Ham want them to?

Surely the teams have a strategy in place so I would presume a choice has been made right?

For me, for selfish reasons i hope both teams prioritize the drivers title. Entertainment wise i would like to see the two drivers sort it out themselves.

What would you do?
I think you gotta be able to win races to have the problem of considering if your primarily focus is on WDC or WCC. Those that can win and seem to have a driver that is mathematically in the mix for the WDC, I suspect the WDC will be the primary focus, but they also care about WCC. WDC would be the focus (IMHO), because the majority of press goes to the WDC and not the WCC. Its what we talk about 90% of the time. So those top teams would like all of the fanfare and associated publicity to feature their team as part of the total package.

Those team who have no real prospect for WDC, really can only probably then focus on WCC points as that drives end of year revenue.

My 2cents.

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Old 26 Nov 2021, 07:30 (Ref:4085505)   #307
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I think you gotta be able to win races to have the problem of considering if your primarily focus is on WDC or WCC. Those that can win and seem to have a driver that is mathematically in the mix for the WDC, I suspect the WDC will be the primary focus, but they also care about WCC. WDC would be the focus (IMHO), because the majority of press goes to the WDC and not the WCC. Its what we talk about 90% of the time. So those top teams would like all of the fanfare and associated publicity to feature their team as part of the total package.

Those team who have no real prospect for WDC, really can only probably then focus on WCC points as that drives end of year revenue.

My 2cents.

Richard
Re the WCC dont forget although winning it carries an extra 20-30 million-ish over 2nd and so on down, on the other hand coming second place has benefits that first does not, with teams getting a greater percentage of aero 'freebie' time as their position is lower. So the runner up gets more wind tunnel / CFD time allowed over what the winner gets. Then 3rd gets more than 2nd etc through the field.

There is an explanatory article on Autosport (Plus unfortunately I think rather than one of their freebie articles.) which covers it well.

The potential benefits of losing the F1 constructors' title

a snippet....
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The FIA’s sporting regulations dictate how much time each team gets relative to their constructors’ placing, split into “restricted windtunnel testing” and “restricted CFD” (RCFD). Each position is then allocated a percentage, and the team finishing in that position receives the corresponding percentage of the base limit to use....
....Based on the 2021 standings following Qatar, Haas will receive 60 more hours of overall time in the windtunnel, with 48 extra runs per ATP and 12 extra wind-on hours. Overall, it’s not a night-and-day advantage, but it’s certainly enough to give a team more options during their visits.

The CFD rules are more complex, because governing a virtual space is remarkably more difficult than physically restricting windtunnel time....
In effect I believe 7th in the WCC is the median and receives 100% of everything.... those finishing ahead get a lower %age of freedom through to the winner who only gets 70%. Finish 10th and you get 115%

Sorry I cant really be more specific given paywalls and issues arising for the forum. I have tried to allude to the process.

In essence though what it says is that finishing lower as always gives a smaller slice of the pie, but coming lower comes with increasin and valuable aero time compensations.

Im sure it will become less exclusive info as the days progress.
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 08:13 (Ref:4085507)   #308
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Originally Posted by E.B View Post
Re the WCC dont forget although winning it carries an extra 20-30 million-ish over 2nd and so on down, on the other hand coming second place has benefits that first does not, with teams getting a greater percentage of aero 'freebie' time as their position is lower. So the runner up gets more wind tunnel / CFD time allowed over what the winner gets. Then 3rd gets more than 2nd etc through the field.

There is an explanatory article on Autosport (Plus unfortunately I think rather than one of their freebie articles.) which covers it well.

The potential benefits of losing the F1 constructors' title

a snippet....


In effect I believe 7th in the WCC is the median and receives 100% of everything.... those finishing ahead get a lower %age of freedom through to the winner who only gets 70%. Finish 10th and you get 115%

Sorry I cant really be more specific given paywalls and issues arising for the forum. I have tried to allude to the process.

In essence though what it says is that finishing lower as always gives a smaller slice of the pie, but coming lower comes with increasin and valuable aero time compensations.

Im sure it will become less exclusive info as the days progress.
There is also an article covering it on the F1 official site - which I think is not behind a paywall.

From that site:
previous season's championship positionPercentage of current aero testing allowed for 2021Percentage of current aero testing allowed for 2022-25
190%70%
292.5%75%
395%80%
497.5%85%
5100%90%
6102.5%95%
7105%100%
8107.5%105%
9110%110%
10+ or new team112.5%115%

There is also a decent summary of the prize money breakdown here.
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 08:46 (Ref:4085511)   #309
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
There is also an article covering it on the F1 official site - which I think is not behind a paywall.

From that site:
previous season's championship positionPercentage of current aero testing allowed for 2021Percentage of current aero testing allowed for 2022-25
190%70%
292.5%75%
395%80%
497.5%85%
5100%90%
6102.5%95%
7105%100%
8107.5%105%
9110%110%
10+ or new team112.5%115%

There is also a decent summary of the prize money breakdown here.
Thanks for that crm.....
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 11:04 (Ref:4085526)   #310
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How good is Gasly going around here. I really rate him. The path upwards is blocked and he would do well to let his RB contract run down so that he could move somewhere else (Alpine?).
He seems to be happy in the Red Bull family at the moment, and actions like this may 'open up' a path:

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co..._left_his_drs/
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 14:41 (Ref:4085545)   #311
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Considering the comments Marko made about Gasly in Bahrain, I think those actions shows who the bigger man is
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 15:28 (Ref:4085552)   #312
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Those team who have no real prospect for WDC, really can only probably then focus on WCC points as that drives end of year revenue.
no doubt it will take both cars for Mclaren to catch Ferrari (Mclaren are 39.5pts down). but after that, the points table looks fairly set at this point.

something extraordinary, like an AT driver winning a race, could move them ahead of Alpine but then that would suggest that AT put maximum effort behind Gasly/a one driver approach to the next 2 weekends (not a dis on Tsunoda but he hasent shown enough even for a fluke win imo) for even a chance to secure the points they need to move up.

that just leaves RB and Merc and as you say, the WDC is where all the attention is so they must both be looking to emphasis their lead driver.

we know know RB will and imo if Merc doesn't then they are making a crucial error.

at this point, one cannot count on Bottas being able to or willing to keep himself ahead of Max.

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Originally Posted by E.B View Post
In effect I believe 7th in the WCC is the median and receives 100% of everything.... those finishing ahead get a lower %age of freedom through to the winner who only gets 70%. Finish 10th and you get 115%
i did not know this. knew the prize money changed but didnt realize that resource allocation stuff increased the further down the table you finished.

mind a bit blown but with the budget cap, will teams further down the grid be able to take advantage of more costly wind tunnel time? very curious to see how tis plays out in the off season.

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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
He seems to be happy in the Red Bull family at the moment, and actions like this may 'open up' a path:

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co..._left_his_drs/
i suppose that is the other option...have your customer team help you out.

if intentional, a bit of dirty pool there imo.

circling back to my earlier point though...if AT are going to do this then they have pretty much abandoned any desire to even try to over take Alpine on the points table.

i suppose in his wisdom, this is why Bernie leveraged the prize fund the way he did?
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 15:54 (Ref:4085555)   #313
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if intentional, a bit of dirty pool there imo.

circling back to my earlier point though...if AT are going to do this then they have pretty much abandoned any desire to even try to over take Alpine on the points table.
I think very much intentional:

As Gasly may be able to make things difficult for the Mercedes drivers if he gets a good start, he was asked by Sky Sports if he would be willing to help his former teammate Verstappen when he can. "I will try but the thing is I don't drive a Red Bull in the end," Gasly told. "I don't have the pace they have."
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 16:07 (Ref:4085557)   #314
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I think very much intentional:

As Gasly may be able to make things difficult for the Mercedes drivers if he gets a good start, he was asked by Sky Sports if he would be willing to help his former teammate Verstappen when he can. "I will try but the thing is I don't drive a Red Bull in the end," Gasly told. "I don't have the pace they have."
well thats the thing, he has a slower car...had he employed DRS he might have stayed ahead in that corner but he still would have come under threat soon after. if memory serves, Alonso also soon after let Max through without a fight.

so sure Gasly intentionally didnt make life harder for one of the title contenders but that is still different then whether or not he would intentionally try to make things harder for the other title contender.

hard to say but yeah, that quote makes it sound like he would if he could.
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 22:57 (Ref:4085582)   #315
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well thats the thing, he has a slower car...had he employed DRS he might have stayed ahead in that corner but he still would have come under threat soon after. if memory serves, Alonso also soon after let Max through without a fight.

so sure Gasly intentionally didnt make life harder for one of the title contenders but that is still different then whether or not he would intentionally try to make things harder for the other title contender.

hard to say but yeah, that quote makes it sound like he would if he could.
If AT want to make Hamilton's life difficult, give Ocon Tsunoda's car for the weekend.
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