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Old 22 Nov 2021, 10:38 (Ref:4084933)   #241
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And there is the inconvenient fact that a Honda powered car was top of the speed traps in Brazil. As if we need to muddy the waters any further.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 10:42 (Ref:4084934)   #242
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Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
And there is the inconvenient fact that a Honda powered car was top of the speed traps in Brazil. As if we need to muddy the waters any further.
Indeed. I do wish people would look through Horners BS....if they checked the speed traps, they would see that it isnt the Merc that is quick, but that Max was virtually at the bottom of all the speed traps.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 10:47 (Ref:4084937)   #243
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"gone exponential" is a terrible bit of hyperbole.

No, Christian, it hasn't. If it had they would be far, far quicker.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 10:52 (Ref:4084938)   #244
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Originally Posted by ascarracinguk View Post
The problem is that Mercedes DID use the Brazil wing in Qatar as far as im aware...sure i saw an interview from Toto confimring it....

....so if its passed scrutineering plus all the additional checks at the weekend, what can they protest. If its passing the tests, the only way to get it changed, is to change the tests?....a bit late for that, surely
Marko thinks they've changed something in the way the wing operates:

Asked if Mercedes have been making changes amid the protest threat, Marko replied: "It is difficult to tell from the outside, but we can see it from the data. At least there is movement."

So I guess they'll be back to making a protest about the engine fitted for Brazil?
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 10:56 (Ref:4084939)   #245
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If the new Merc engine is worth 5-6kph, then id disagree with what Jenson said about gaining performance from the engine alone. I still think they have something trick on the car (legal or illegal). Someone mentioned it had something suspension related at the rear which is lowering the back of the car at speed?
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 11:08 (Ref:4084940)   #246
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Someone mentioned it had something suspension related at the rear which is lowering the back of the car at speed?
Yes - Gary Anderson explained it here.

In summary, they are stalling the diffuser through a suspension arrangement (that is perfectly legal) -
"When you are going down the straight, both [side] suspension linkages are compressing. So the springs compress, the car is getting lower to the ground and also [a] third spring is compressing because the two rockers are going in the same direction. And the downforce builds up on the car at the square of the speed, so in other words when you are at twice the speed you have four times the downforce. When that happens, the load builds up on that suspension assembly and depending on the geometry of the linkages driving the third spring what you can do is have that linkage go ‘over centre’, meaning basically the rate of compression of the third spring which on the straights is holding the car up reduces.
This allows the third spring not to operate at the same ratio and basically it reduces in its rate of compression and in turn support, meaning the rear of the car will drop faster. When you hit the brakes, the rear of the car will rise and the diffuser airflow will reattach and produce the downforce for braking stability and corner balance."


There is a consensus that they have been trying to achieve this all season, and only at the British GP upgrade package did they find the right setup to make this work. Then, it proves effective on long-straight circuits as best demonstrated in Turkey.

The aerodynamic update [introduced at Silverstone], which centred on the car's midriff, appears to have made the car less of a handful and easier for the team to find the performance sweet spot of the car over a range of conditions, thus making it easier to tune this suspension 'trick' at different circuits too.
  • The forward vertical deflector was cut down, which in-turn allowed for the venetian blind-like slats to be extended forward
  • The main vertical deflector was also detached from the sidepod's leading edge wing, removing the arched section that had previously framed the sidepod's shoulder.
  • The 'wave' floor section which had been an imposing feature on the W12 since the start of the season was also tuned.
  • The single, more prominent floor scroll, was replaced by a pair of scrolls instead.
  • Eight angled fins were added, in order to course correct the airflow that moves around the sidepod.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 11:15 (Ref:4084941)   #247
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
If the new Merc engine is worth 5-6kph, then id disagree with what Jenson said about gaining performance from the engine alone. I still think they have something trick on the car (legal or illegal). Someone mentioned it had something suspension related at the rear which is lowering the back of the car at speed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDGz7afFKw

The video is claiming it is because the linkage goes over-centre passed a certain point the spring rate drops progressively and the car will sink faster from a certain speed onwards.

The main limitation of this system is that you of course don't want this to happen in the fast corners as you will loose time. So there is a limited speed envelope in which the system will help you. If you have only few fast corners that are grip limited then you set that point for a lower speed because the gain you have on the straights is larger than you loose in those few corners.

For Brazil it is hard to say which fast corners are grip limited. 6 and 7 for sure, but 3 and 12 might still be full throttle even with a stalled diffuser. If so that might help to explain why the effect was so large in Brazil, because they then could choose to sacrifice corner 6 and 7 for a greater benefit on the straights.


An altogether much more efficient system would be one, where for instance something like the heave damper shown in the video (https://youtu.be/HFDGz7afFKw?t=338) opens up when centred (close to symmetrical forces left and right when not cornering on the straights) but closes with sufficient side load in the corners). If there is a system that connects this to the base of the springs you can have a spring base that is firm when there is a closed circuit (in the asymmetric position), but allows the base of the spring to move out of the way due to a lack of hydraulic resistance when the circuit is open in the symmetric position. That way the suspension opens up only in the central position on the straights to make it drop and stall the diffuser and stays firm in the corners for maximum downforce.

This system would have a much bigger working envelope and does requires significantly less set up compromise, because you can both maximize corner as well straight line performance.

I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation.

Last edited by Taxi645; 22 Nov 2021 at 11:27.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 12:20 (Ref:4084945)   #248
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Great post Taxi.

"I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation." Taxi 645

Difficult to argue that the set up isn't wholly or solely for aerodynamic benefit, moveable aerodynamic aid?
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 12:21 (Ref:4084946)   #249
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation.

I am pretty certain that if you are aware of the system that Mercedes have introduced and there is a Youtube video of it, and it was not legal then not only would Red Bull have protested it, or at least have asked the technical team at the FIA to clarify the legality, but so would have most other teams as well.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 12:31 (Ref:4084947)   #250
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Great post Taxi.

"I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation." Taxi 645

Difficult to argue that the set up isn't wholly or solely for aerodynamic benefit, moveable aerodynamic aid?
I can't find the reference right now, but I recall reading somewhere that the design is legal because it 'only acts on the external forces applied to the car'.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 12:43 (Ref:4084949)   #251
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Great post Taxi.

"I suspect such a system would not be legal, but I would not know on the basis of what technical regulation." Taxi 645

Difficult to argue that the set up isn't wholly or solely for aerodynamic benefit, moveable aerodynamic aid?
Thank you. The system Mercedes uses is deemed legal and that is acknowledged by Red Bull (prolly all teams are using it to a certain degree, but perhaps not as much as Mercedes with their low rake design that allows the diffuser stall. I suspect that the Gary Anderson explanation of the system is right since we do see very significant changes in the system effectiveness across the different tracks. Which fit's much more with the limited envelope of the first system.

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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
I am pretty certain that if you are aware of the system that Mercedes have introduced and there is a Youtube video of it, and it was not legal then not only would Red Bull have protested it, or at least have asked the technical team at the FIA to clarify the legality, but so would have most other teams as well.
Agreed. The only nuance on that I could imagine would be if other team suspect Mercedes to use the first system like themselves, but is actually using the much more effective second system. I don't think that is very likely.

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I can't find the reference right now, but I recall reading somewhere that the design is legal because it 'only acts on the external forces applied to the car'.
Yes, and no aerodynamic surface is moving in relation to the rest of the car.


Personally I'm in favour of cars that can adapt between high downforce in the corners and lower downforce/drag on the straight as long as it is a passive system (not electronics or driver triggered) and it maintains safe and predictable driving characteristics.

I'm in favour of it for several reasons:
1 It is more efficient (I find dragging barn doors through the air at 200mph a ridiculous idea from a technical point of view).
2 High efficiency, means less fuel, which means lighter cars.
3 It is innovation.
4 It gives the engineers more to do in an era where the rest of the aerodynamics is more prescribed.
5 You can avoid this endless discussion of "bending wings". I've never heard a single good argument why that should not be allowed.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 13:07 (Ref:4084950)   #252
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I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 13:17 (Ref:4084951)   #253
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
Personally I'm in favour of cars that can adapt between high downforce in the corners and lower downforce/drag on the straight as long as it is a passive system (not electronics or driver triggered) and it maintains safe and predictable driving characteristics.

I'm in favour of it for several reasons:
1 It is more efficient (I find dragging barn doors through the air at 200mph a ridiculous idea from a technical point of view).
2 High efficiency, means less fuel, which means lighter cars.
3 It is innovation.
4 It gives the engineers more to do in an era where the rest of the aerodynamics is more prescribed.
5 You can avoid this endless discussion of "bending wings". I've never heard a single good argument why that should not be allowed.
I like what you are saying here. But I am slightly different in that I think electronic versions of this (vs strictly mechanical) should be allowed. It is a broken record if you look at my posts in total, but I think they should allow active suspension (but using standard and limited parts). This concept of a camming action via the third/heave spring to stall the diffuser. Could easily be achieved via active suspension. It could either be automatic or driver initiated (depending upon how easy/complicated we want to make it for the driver)

While I am a proponent of active suspension, I also have no problem with a more formalized active aero setup. As F1 struggles to continue to be able to set itself a step above other series (and we have seen how expensive that can be if that differentiation is via expensive and complex power units), I think active suspension and aero could be the ticket to do that in the future.

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Old 22 Nov 2021, 13:24 (Ref:4084952)   #254
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I have a question regarding the yellow flags during Qualifying. Don't all groan at once. Was the yellow flag, double or single, waived just at Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz or was it waived at other drivers as well?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhGOTB_GevY

Basically it was a mixture. tbh should have been double waved all the way through, however it was a developing situation with a slow car then grinding to a halt, so in real time its actually quite a tricky situation for marshals to assess.

Ive been in this situation before where a slow moving car should be a white flag, which then changes to a yellow, but because of the location of marshal posts, if the car stops just before or after the post it can change the flag youre using. Although if in doubt, over do it....noone (other that horner) will criticise you for being extra cautious where safety is concerned.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4084956)   #255
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