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Old 22 Nov 2021, 16:42 (Ref:4084996)   #271
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I'm not sure I'm explainiong this well - and we might be pushing the same point.

The yellow flags and DRS sign are all track-side of any furniture and so visible from the drivers' perspective. The light panel in the pitlane is not track-side, and so (at least partially) obscured from the driver.
Attached is an image (in daylight) of the pitlane light panel. The shrouding is just visible.


Another interesting point I note (at least to me) - the number of Marshals' posts increased from 26 for FP1 to 44 before qualifying. I wonder if this was a factor in the race control messages and interaction with Marshals' posts?

I understand what you're saying about the pitlane light. However, the marshal's post is behind the track perimeter barrier and the DRS sign is trackside and before the marshal's post.

I think the DRS sign might obscure the marshal's post enough, making it difficult to see the flags, which may explain why both Bottas and Verstappen said they couldn't see any flags. Their perspective is much lower than the airbox cam.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 17:14 (Ref:4084999)   #272
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I understand what you're saying about the pitlane light. However, the marshal's post is behind the track perimeter barrier and the DRS sign is trackside and before the marshal's post.

I think the DRS sign might obscure the marshal's post enough, making it difficult to see the flags, which may explain why both Bottas and Verstappen said they couldn't see any flags. Their perspective is much lower than the airbox cam.
Ah - I understand now (I think). It would be interesting to see if that obscuring occurred. However, I would have expected Red Bull to have produced evidence of that in Max's defence.

There is also the matter of angle - so if the DRS sign obscures at one point, then before and after that point the angle of sight is different.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 17:18 (Ref:4085001)   #273
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Ah - I understand now (I think). It would be interesting to see if that obscuring occurred. However, I would have expected Red Bull to have produced evidence of that in Max's defence.

There is also the matter of angle - so if the DRS sign obscures at one point, then before and after that point the angle of sight is different.

True.


Unfortunately without a helmet cam or visor cam that remains an unknown, there is only the footage from the airbox cam.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 17:28 (Ref:4085005)   #274
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Basically i think drivers have become too reliant on these other things and have taken their eye off the ball where flags are concerned.
Yes I think that is a good point there. I also think frequent SCs and VSCs mean some drivers don’t see yellow flags as anything worth slowing down for anymore
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 02:29 (Ref:4085046)   #275
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Yes I think that is a good point there. I also think frequent SCs and VSCs mean some drivers don’t see yellow flags as anything worth slowing down for anymore
I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 02:33 (Ref:4085047)   #276
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Another video on the Mercedes wing flex, and performance in relation to the whole field. RBR's performance to dropped off and Mercedes' improved dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVR7u48De2U

The witness marks on the the rear wing end plates of the Mercedes' seems to be a pretty damning indication that the lower plane is flexing.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 02:53 (Ref:4085049)   #277
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.
The flags are king. The other are supplemental. Removing those will remove a safety aid for the drivers and track workers. It would be a backwards step.

My car tells me the speed limit on a road. That is useful and a safety feature for me, but I know it is the actual signs on the road that define it and still observe those. If I only relied on the car that would make me an idiot and if I got caught speeding, or worse, it would be my fault. What my car told me would not be an excuse.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 08:36 (Ref:4085068)   #278
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I think that the light panels are generally reliable, and far more visible than the flags, especially in the dark, so the drivers generally just rely on the light panels and dashboard lights. They then get caught when the lights are not properly activated when a flag is thrown. If the lights are unreliable, perhaps the FIA should just pull the lights and rely on the flags alone.
There are a few problems with making the lights 'primary'. Including:

The number of light panels does not equate to the number of marshal posts. As an example from this last weekend (attached image) - an incident on the exit of T16 may see yellow flags at marshal posts 16.3 and 16.5. The post at 16.2 may still be green, and so light panel 19 would also be green. The drivers have to observe the flags at 16.3 and 16.5, despite not passing a light panel.

Marshal's posts can also display multiple flags simultaneously. There has been discussion in the Marshal's section, including here - https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...73&postcount=6 - about using multiple flags simultaneously. 'The problem of waving multiple flags by lights is one I hadn't previously thought of, but it's a situation that does crop up often. Red and yellow, white and yellow, white and red all crop up.'
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T15 T16.PNG  
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 10:17 (Ref:4085078)   #279
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Thanks CR. Guess the light boxes need to get an upgrade and an increase in their number.

Woolley's post in the thread you referenced seems to cover the visibility of the flags.

"It makes you realise how efficient flags are, and how difficult it is to adequately replace them. The only real problem with flags is the distance the person waving them is from the circuit and how poorly sited some of the posts are." Woolley

The real problem would appear to be that the drivers are not seeing the flags, it is difficult to believe that with the penalties they are subject to for ignoring the flags that they would not respond to a flag they see correctly.

The in car systems would also seem to be a good answer to the problems - when they work, there needs to be; without blaming anybody; a better system put in place to coordinate the three systems - flags, light boxes and dash displays. The violations would appear not to be deliberate but a systems failure.

(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 10:25 (Ref:4085081)   #280
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The flags are king. The other are supplemental. Removing those will remove a safety aid for the drivers and track workers. It would be a backwards step.

My car tells me the speed limit on a road. That is useful and a safety feature for me, but I know it is the actual signs on the road that define it and still observe those. If I only relied on the car that would make me an idiot and if I got caught speeding, or worse, it would be my fault. What my car told me would not be an excuse.
If the road signs contradict one another however, you may have an excuse for not obeying one of them.
I am not trying to apportion blame, or make excuses, just trying to fix a system that seems to be producing contradictory messages.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 10:30 (Ref:4085082)   #281
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The in car systems would also seem to be a good answer to the problems - when they work, there needs to be; without blaming anybody; a better system put in place to coordinate the three systems - flags, light boxes and dash displays. The violations would appear not to be deliberate but a systems failure.

(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )
I understand that - and whilst I agree with the intent behind your post, I don't think systems failure can be accepted as a defence.

A simpler (I know I have advocated for progression) would be to just use flags. I guarantee that drivers would pay more attention to them then, rather than complacency.
But - that horse has bolted and light boards are becoming mandatory fixed at all Grade 1 circuits from next year. So as you say, if complacency does exist, and safety is a priority - the complacency needs to be mitigated to reduce the risk.
Two ways - harsher penalties for not adhering to flags, or light panels at each marshal post and a more robust system for use.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 10:35 (Ref:4085083)   #282
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If the road signs contradict one another however, you may have an excuse for not obeying one of them.
I am not trying to apportion blame, or make excuses, just trying to fix a system that seems to be producing contradictory messages.
I think that situation is fairly simple though. If you receive contradictory road signs, you take the safer of the two options.

Likewise with the flag vs light panel vs in-car system. If there is a contradiction, take the safer of the options.

e.g. - if there was a marshal's post that was waving a blue flag, a light panel flashing yellow and your in-car system was reporting 'green' - what action should a driver take? I would put it that the driver has to observe the safest option (assume they are passing a yellow) and also consider that they may be the recipient of the blue flag.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 11:55 (Ref:4085090)   #283
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(And yes violations need and should be punished, but the systems need to be addressed before a real problem arises from a driver not receiving an intended warning for whatever reason. )

I'm afraid, possibly because I am an old fart that used to race, that it seems to be the current attitude of recent drivers, in all forms of circuit racing, that seems they should be the arbiters of how they should react to flags and driving standards, not marshals or the person responsible for ensuring both are followed properly.

And, I am afraid that the excuse that the driver didn't see the flags is as old as is motor racing. Problem is that it is impossible to actually monitor so maybe we should get Bill Gates to come up with an injectable chip that can record what the drivers can see or has seen.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 12:20 (Ref:4085091)   #284
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I'm afraid, possibly because I am an old fart that used to race, that it seems to be the current attitude of recent drivers, in all forms of circuit racing, that seems they should be the arbiters of how they should react to flags and driving standards, not marshals or the person responsible for ensuring both are followed properly.
Indeed. It seems a sport in itself to try and find blame for what the sport is doing wrong. However it is simple here. The blame lies with Bottas and Verstappen.

We live in a world we’re it is always someone’s else’s fault. Everyone sounds like my kid.
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 14:53 (Ref:4085118)   #285
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Yes, yellow flags are never an option. If you don’t see them and others do, be more observant. If you see them, but don’t slow down for them, that is just plain dangerous, as we have seen before in racing
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