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Old 16 Oct 2005, 20:25 (Ref:1435403)   #46
Super Tourer
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Super Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If I can add to the Webber debate, a lot of which is old ground. I think that Mark has learnt a lot this year. Coming into the season there was a certain amount of expectation/hype - call it what you will - but he was a driver that had never previously run at the front in F1 and only had a 5th place finish to his name.

What we have seen this season is the performance from somebody with those credentials - learning to run at the front, learning how to pass the Fizzi's, Button's, Barrichello's of F1 - in other words this has been very much a learning season for Mark.

I think we saw some of the fruits of it today. The Webber of early season would have lunged at Massa and risk taking either or both of them off, yet we didn't see that - we saw a driver who tried hard but still made a points finish.

I'll admit I am not great fan of Webber, perhaps that is clouded by how many times we have had to hear about the great things he would achieve this year, despite the lack of an obvious cv to breed such expectation. Maybe his supporters have expected him to run before he can walk, that is my take on it.

I predict he could well be the most improved driver of 2006, with the experience (good and bad) he has garnered this season.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 22:10 (Ref:1435517)   #47
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Menelaos should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Bellof
all buts and ifs apart, it shows he achieved more in lesser equipment.
Yeah, but that's not just "buts and ifs". MS had three races more than JPM.
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 22:12 (Ref:1435520)   #48
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Menelaos should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by touringlegend
2 - Fernando Alonso. Didn't have outright pace of Kimi usually
Ah, but he probably would (or at least he'd be close to it) if he had some reason to push it. Alonso's quote today "we showed that if we want to risk to beat McLaren we can do it" was utterly stupid though. Being able to do this today doesn't mean they could've done it everytime...
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Old 16 Oct 2005, 22:44 (Ref:1435540)   #49
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touringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well they didn't do it everytime.

He could have been tellling the truth. I thought it a pretty clever comment - just letting people know Renault are good when their backs against the wall.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 04:33 (Ref:1435641)   #50
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Trev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTrev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have taken into consideration the car at the drivers disposal.

1 - Kimi Raikkonen. The fastest driver this year only let down by poor reliablity of his car
2 - Fernando Alonso. Fast and Consistent, Had the speed an reliablity at the start of the year and then the maturity to hang on towards the end of the season.
3 - Michael Schumacher. Considering their past results a dismal year but Schumacher still pushed his car to the limit when there was little chance of a result and dragged the car up the grid.
4 - Juan Pablo Montoya. Not a bad year but is seems to eratic to be a WDC, shows glimpses of amazing speed, punctuated with silly mistakes and offs..
5 - David Coulthard. One of the drivers of the year, consistently drove a mid pack car to good results
6 - Mark Webber. Showed plenty of pace in qualifying, but made silly mistakes in the first half of the year. Second half of the year was solid and mistake free.
7 - Jarno Trulli. His qualifying performances were very good with fair race performance, but once again his second half of the year was poor.
8 - Ralf Schumacher. Pretty much the exact oposite of Trulli, Very average 1st half of the year with a very solid second half, a better racer than qualifier.
9 - Christian Klien. Very good year deserved his spot over Luizzi with some very strong performances, improver of the year.
10 - Giancarlo Fisichella. I know he is very low but I can't help but compare what he achieved to Alonso in the same car. Basically gifted a win in Australia, then had bad luck, errors and poor reliablity and then his year fell apart after that. Japan still sticks in my mind as the ulimate poor performance.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 05:25 (Ref:1435658)   #51
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dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Kicking-back
It's based on expectation.

We were told before the season that Mark would be the new Fangio.

He wasn't
I think that is more your fault for believing it rather than Mark's for not living up to it.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 06:07 (Ref:1435669)   #52
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Kicking-back
It's based on expectation.
That is ridiculous.

Surely you remember what happens when the green flag drops ...........

I'll base mine on on-track performance thank you very much - as I expected most sane people would.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 06:17 (Ref:1435674)   #53
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Also, Nick seems to have contributed a lot more behind the scenes in getting the car competitive.
How ON EARTH can you justify that statement!!!???

Has Patrick Head been on the phone to you everytime one of the drivers has made some input to the car's performance?

The Williams' pace hasn't exactly tailed off since Heidfeld was injured. If anything it's improved - without the input of the golden-haired boy of car development.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 06:28 (Ref:1435678)   #54
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KE30MAN should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Another Webber slag-off. I am not even a huge fan but even I am sick of every F1 thread ending the same way.

Wake me up when it's finished.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 06:55 (Ref:1435691)   #55
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Sorry for three posts in quick succession, but my top ten is:

1) Fernando Alonso
Drove to a commanding early lead and did everything required to clean up the championship. Stuck it up those questioning his racing ability when let off the leash in Japan. Personal highlights: Imola and Japan

2) Kimi Raikkonen
For his pure, unadulterated, blinding speed at many races. Undoubtedly helped by arguably the fastest car, his lap times in clear air were often mind-blowing. Personal highlights: Japan and astronomical lap times

3) Juan Pablo Montoya
Showed in the second half of the year that he can match his phenomenal team mate. Will be very interesting to see them duke it out in 2006. Personal highlights: Three wins, especially Brazil

4) Michael Schumacher
His stunning performances can be seen by the HUGE gaps often between he and his team mate. Some feisty performances dragged a slow Ferrari where it should not have been at many times. Let down by weekends like China and Turkey. Personal highlights: Imola, Hungary and pass on Fisi at Interlagos

5) Tiago Monteiro
I am surprised to be putting him here - but I cannot think of anyone below him that performed better. Some outstanding performances in an evil car. Personal highlights: Indy and Spa

6) Jarno Trulli
Strong start to the year proved he is as much a racer as anyone when in the right machinery. Faded a little at the end of the season due to various factors. Personal highlights: Sepang and Bahrain

7) Ralf Schumacher
Came on strong at the end of the season and went some way to justifying his paypacket. Looked good for Toyota's first win at Spa before tyre gamble. Personal highlights: Spa and China

8) Mark Webber
Showed glimpses of magic speed (particularly in qualifying), but clearly made too many mistakes in the first half of the season. Elevated above team mate (if ever so slightly) due to superior speed and end of season form (despite Nick's absence). Personal highlights: Japan, Monaco and Spa

9) Nick Heidfeld
Remarkably solid season. Usually marginally behind team mate on speed, but more often at the finish without error. Established himself as a worthy frontrunner in Formula One. Personal highlights: Phenomenal Nurburgring drive

10) Jenson Button
After BAR's ban showed glimpses of last season's performances in a less impressive car. Tendency to disappear a little in some races mostly down to car setup issues. Personal highlights: Spa and Hockenheim

Of the rest, Fisi and DC deserve honourable mentions, while Klien, Albers and Doornbos had some impressive moments.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 12:21 (Ref:1435874)   #56
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac
How ON EARTH can you justify that statement!!!???

Has Patrick Head been on the phone to you everytime one of the drivers has made some input to the car's performance?

The Williams' pace hasn't exactly tailed off since Heidfeld was injured. If anything it's improved - without the input of the golden-haired boy of car development.
I've never seen a quote from anyone praising Webber's input to car development, even though he's been team leader in at least 3 of his 4 seasons. Frank and Patrick have praised Nick and never praised Webber in this area.

Anyway, can we split the Webber/Heidfeld stuff onto a different thread now, and leave this for the lists?
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 13:12 (Ref:1435915)   #57
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Gerben24 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
1. JP Montoya In his first year with Mclaren just as quick as KR in a car which has been setup for KR. Had a lot of bad luck with that motorcycle incident, which saw him start from scratch again.

2. K Raikkonen This years WDC if it wasn't for all those blow ups. His qually lap at Monza was brilliant. Wasn't faultless this season of course.

3. F Alonso A tiny bit lucky to be WDC. A good succesor to MS. What did he do to Fisi? Only made 2 big mistakes, Canada, putting grafiti on the wall and Hungary, lawn mowing the grass in the first corner of the first lap.

4. J Trulli Brilliant drives from him, especially in the beginning of the year, a shame he couldn't use Toyota's first ever pole at Indy. Lacked speed at the end of the year, especially with the new car.

5. T Monteiro Rookie of the year. Knows how to bring the car home. Totally outshined his teammate. His drive at Spa was brilliant.

6. N Heidfeld Proved me wrong this year. I never really rated him high. But he got the only pole for Williams this year and was just as quick as his teammate.

7. M Schumacher It wasn't just the tyres and the car. Schumacher lacked pace as well this year. What a brilliant pole in Hungary though!

8. J Button Just compare his performance with his teammate. His driving style is absolutely boring but very effective. Could have been 7th, if not for the Buttongate scandal.

9. C Albers With the qualifying format of this season it is very difficult to shine as a rookie. I think he did a good job, his qualifying lap in Canada and his race in Germany jump in mind. He is also not affraid to let his opinion know, for example in Belgium they qualified the cars on petrol-fumes, which he was absolutely discusted by. He said it would compromise their race performance, which it did.

10. V Liuzzi For having the same qualifying time and finishing ahead of his teammate (who is the 4th alltime point scorer in F1-history) in his first ever Formula 1 race.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 13:17 (Ref:1435924)   #58
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
1) Alonso - Worthy WDC. Showed blinding speed, thrashed his previously highly rated team-mate, showed maturity and self restraint (when needing results not wins)
2) Raikonnen - If if if the Mercedes engines were not made of glass, he may have ended up as champion. Obviously the stand-out driver for much of the season.

That was the easy bit, now for the difficult part:

3) Coulthard - Just shades 3rd best driver in my book. Rarely quick in qualifying, but always on the pace on Sunday. Numerous times qualified behind his team-mate, but left him beind in the race. The Coulthard / RBR partnership was the surprise of the year.
4) M Schumacher - Very dissapointing year, but again out-performed his often invisible team-mate. Be honest - if you were given the job of a team manager and could pick any 2 drivers, he would probably be one of them... (Ok you may disagree, but lets not start a fight eh?)
5) Montoya - Got faster as the year progressed, but again some days sems not quite at the races. If he can get more consistantly, I doubt that Kimi will have it all his own way next year.
6) Button - Disasterous start to the season, but found some speed towards the end. Some wierd lack of race pace was presumably down to car?
7) Monteiro - I would like to see him back in a decent car next year, as he a) Always bought the car home and b) Got faster as the year went by.
8) Trulli - Some great qualifying performances that made his team-mate look on in awe. However, he has not done much to break his reputation of a great qualifier who can't quite do the same on Sunday.
9) Webber - The first time he is paired up with a quality team-mate, and he may have lost a little of his reputation, but still impressed occasionally, in what was not the greatest car.
10) Heidfeld - A couple of years ago he was struggling to get a decent drive, but another solid season. A good signing for BMW next year.
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 13:38 (Ref:1435949)   #59
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Gilles lives! should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Here's mine.

Alonso. Absolute quality, he has everthing.

Raikkonen. As above, perhaps harder on the car.

Button. Outstanding in qualifying, did well in the races with poor handling car.

Montoya. Took a few races to get up to Raikkonen speed though.

Trulli. Almost the same as Button, watch out next year.

Coulthard. Great job against the young drivers.

Fisichella. Dissapointed me, but occaisionally brilliant.

Webber. Always exiting to watch, if not a little to exiting at times!

Heidfield. There or there abouts, still undecided on his outright ability.

Schumi. Tried too hard in dog of a car, drove beyond even his abilities, deserves reprimand after Albers incident in China, what was he thinking?
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Old 17 Oct 2005, 14:07 (Ref:1435969)   #60
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Mark Webber has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I'm stay out of the Webber debate as I have tried to do most of the year


My list


Kimmi Raikkonen : has done enough by a country to win the WDC this year just unlucky

Fernando Alonso: top driver in great car well done on a fitting WDC

JPM : well suprized me (I'm not a fan) but credit where it is due

David Coulthard: drove hard and often maybe not on Marks chrissy card list anymore , but showed he is not a spent force in F1

Mark Webber : hard year but showed great speed in very slow and underperforming Williams, Mark showed alot of sprint this year, proved hs not scared to have ago ,he beat his team mate and when the car did work well he was always a podium threat

Ralf Schumacher : Took a little long to adjust to the car but as always ralf has shown he is still one of the fastest F1 drivers

Jenson Button : A little dissapointing year actually no doubt Jenson can drive but its the mess that sorrounds him ie : I want to drive here NO I want to drive there and so on . I still think his along way from a win but it will happen , there has been times this year where a win looked somewhat likely but it sort of fissed way

M Schumacher : well even the King can have a bad one just to many little mistakes, very much like Marks just trying to outdrive a bad car but in MS situation I think tyres hurt him this year

Jarno Trulli
Strong start to the year proved he is as much a racer as anyone when in the right machinery. Faded a little at the end of the season due to various factors

Christan Klien: This kid has driven well all year (when he drove )
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