Irish Formula Libre 2008

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

If someone ignores blue flags or drives dangerously, black flag him and send him home.

Under the MI green book the blue flag is not a compulsory flag it is an advisory flag that you are being approached from behind by a considerably faster car or about to be overtaken. You do not have to perform any action other than being aware of this fact, there is no REQUIREMENT to move over so there's really no such thing as ignoring a blue flag or a blue flag infringement.

Regarding dangerous driving, one persons dangerous driving is another persons "battling for the position". It's all HIGHLY subjective and there are quite a few people in the paddock that will sit with the protest forms and the cheque book and quite happily pay their money to protest every decision thus keeping clerks/stewards/marshals/observers at the circuit to all hours.

There are certain classes that have driving standards that are SO bad there are many marshals who (quite rightly) will not get down off the banks to deal with cars until the race is stopped, and getting a race stopped was quite an achievement as there were many instances last year where safety was sacrificed to keep to a timetable.

That was one of the reasons I stopped marshaling for cars at Mondello.

I've seen cars come through a steady yellow flag, and into a waved yellow flag for the THIRD time, with a car off and marshals working on it and drivers still losing control, spinning and passing within a few feet of the beached car. I've also seen fastest laps of races set when there's been multiple yellow flags out. I've also seen (and been on the receiving end) of drivers verbally and almost physically abuse marshals and rescue when dealing with an incident that they WEREN'T INVOLVED IN. I've seen the CoC stand by and laugh as one female marshal was verbally abused by a driver.

I must stress that I'm not singling out Libre in any of the above, I'm commenting on driving standards at Mondello across several classes.

Who knows, the changes at Mondello for 2008 with the circuit providing more officials rather than the car clubs could be a change for the better. I hope this will be the case.

Anyways, that's my 2cents worth as a non-racer, meet me in the pit lane if you want to know more of my thoughts

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Under the MI green book the blue flag is not a compulsory flag it is an advisory flag that you are being approached from behind by a considerably faster car or about to be overtaken

Fair enough, why don't MI introduce a "three blue flag rule" ie ignore three waved blues and you're out. Am I dreaming or is there something like this in F1? As you say, hopefully if John Morris plan comes to fruition, we may have consistancy in the way rules are applied to all classes. Whatever about ignoring flags, if a competitor abuses marshalls/officials then he/she should be sent back to where they came from on a one way ticket. As we all know, officials etc give up their Sundays so that the rest of us can enjoy ourselves and should therefore be treated with some respect.

[EvilPumpkin]

Blue flags are only compulsary in certain FIA classes - F1 is one of them and I think that FIA sportscars would be another.

In the UK and ROI club racing, I don't believe that they've ever been compulsory.

You would need a much better system of observation than we currently have in place to enforce a 3 blue flag rule and it would generally require blue flagging to be controlled from the tower which isn't something I would be supportive of as I'm not a big fan of remote control marshalling.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Blue flags are only compulsary in certain FIA classes - F1 is one of them and I think that FIA sportscars would be another.

In the UK and ROI club racing, I don't believe that they've ever been compulsory.

You would need a much better system of observation than we currently have in place to enforce a 3 blue flag rule and it would generally require blue flagging to be controlled from the tower which isn't something I would be supportive of as I'm not a big fan of remote control marshalling.

True, this wouldn't work. I think the F1 cars even have a blue flag display on their steering wheel or wherever indicating when they are passing blue flags.

Really, it's up to the drivers to play fair and the CoC to do his job.

Is this a problem in general in Mondello or is it nore obvious in Libre with such a large speed differential between the quickest and slowest cars?

[EvilPumpkin]

Depends on your definition of a problem - as has been noted earlier, driving standards are very very subjective.

What one driver sees as a dangerous manouvere is simply dicing to another - and generally that perception is coloured by who got the worst of it!

The classes that we would tend to use blue flags most with would be Libres and Historics and also any split classes i.e. Unos and Puntos with a split grid.

In general, behaviour under blues seems to be pretty good - I haven't noticed any serious problems with the Libres and I do a fair bit of flagging both at Mondello and Kirkistown for you guys.

Some of it may be perception about how to behave under a blue. Certainly some people seem to believe that it's compulsory - which it isn't. Other drivers may be confused about what to do - should they hold the line and let the other driver go around them, or try to move to the side and hope that the faster driver isn't in the process of taking a round route.

You should also have a look at the green book as I seem to remember that the correct behaviour for this is actually covered in the rulebook somewhere?

If that fails, then I would suggest that you need to agree with yourselves as a class what you feel the appropriate way for back markers to behave is (bearing in mind that it's going to be a gentlemans' agreement - you can't hold them to it!).

In historics, you will generally see the cars indicate via hand signals that the approaching driver should just go past them and then they will stay on the line they are on until passed - but whether that's an agreed protocol or just evolved, I don't know.

The issue with poor driving standards in general - particularly issues like behaviour under yellow flags - has been ongoing for many years now.

[SCOBER11]

In recent years with the reduced Libre fee's the back of the grid was usually a couple of vee's or something equally as slow with novice drivers trying to get signatures for their licence and then you had quick things like Dan and Ken zooming around the place.
Maybe Libre has just become a victim of its own success and its just the fact that the quick guys have multiplied and you still get novice drivers at the rear racing each other.

Good complaint to have all the same trying to squeeze everybody onto the same grid.

Oh yeah a blue flag is a piece of stick with a blue cloth stuck onto it commonly seen dangling from a orange blob in the distance behind a metal fence and our excuse is we didn't see it, it usually works!

[Panther]

Stick a 2.0L minimum on the class then its bye bye Vee's, Sheane Rovers etc. The class will then probably get binned due to poor entries. Bit of a no win situation?

[libre racer]

Hi all, just reading all your coments about lapping slower cars.The slower cars are not the problem.The driver approaching should see the car in front and be able to decide when its safe to pass especially if he / she is anything between 5 - 10 seconds per lap quicker.If you take a risk on the other driver seeing you,then you have to accept the results of your actions.There will always be cars to be lapped cars regardless of what rules you apply i.e cars with mechanical problems etc.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by libre racer

Hi all, just reading all your coments about lapping slower cars.The slower cars are not the problem.The driver approaching should see the car in front and be able to decide when its safe to pass especially if he / she is anything between 5 - 10 seconds per lap quicker.If you take a risk on the other driver seeing you,then you have to accept the results of your actions.There will always be cars to be lapped cars regardless of what rules you apply i.e cars with mechanical problems etc.

I would hope that the 'If you take a risk on the other driver seeing you,then you have to accept the results of your actions' isn't the common view down the grid. If it is, it's Santry, not Mondello where you need to be racing.

[sryan]

I thought the idea of formula Libre was that all types of single seaters and open top sports cars are allowed to race regardless of speed or size.So anyone with a Vee, Shane rover etc etc I think should be allowed to race. We have to remember that cars like this made up the numbers so we could have this race initally. I don't think Mondello would have had allowed 5 or 6 fast cars have their own race. We should all be able to enjoy racing together as long as both the persons being lapped and the persons lapping them use a bit of common sence when on the track. the idea of getting rid of the so called slow cars so the fast ones can have 2 races sounds unfair

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by sryan

I thought the idea of formula Libre was that all types of single seaters and open top sports cars are allowed to race regardless of speed or size.So anyone with a Vee, Shane rover etc etc I think should be allowed to race. We have to remember that cars like this made up the numbers so we could have this race initally. I don't think Mondello would have had allowed 5 or 6 fast cars have their own race. We should all be able to enjoy racing together as long as both the persons being lapped and the persons lapping them use a bit of common sence when on the track. the idea of getting rid of the so called slow cars so the fast ones can have 2 races sounds unfair

I agree with you 100% Seamus. All this talk of splitting the grid and having two races is nonsense. Do the maths: 20 drivers @ €300 each = €6000. 20 drivers (allow for top 5 from race 1 to go at back of race 2) @€180 = €3600. I cant see Mondello taking a 2k+ hit because we cant all play nicely!

[Evil Starkey]

Originally Posted by Graz

I would hope that the 'If you take a risk on the other driver seeing you,then you have to accept the results of your actions' isn't the common view down the grid. If it is, it's Santry, not Mondello where you need to be racing.

Not a very nice coment Mr Graz. Maybe you did'nt get the point that libre racer was making?

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by Graz

I would hope that the 'If you take a risk on the other driver seeing you,then you have to accept the results of your actions' isn't the common view down the grid. If it is, it's Santry, not Mondello where you need to be racing.

No need to worry Graz.It is obvious that it is not "the common view down the grid".One accident involving a lapped car last season proves to me that only a minorty of drivers are prepared to take the risk. We wont be looking for directions to Santry just yet!

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

I agree with you 100% Seamus. All this talk of splitting the grid and having two races is nonsense. Do the maths: 20 drivers @ €300 each = €6000. 20 drivers (allow for top 5 from race 1 to go at back of race 2) @€180 = €3600. I cant see Mondello taking a 2k+ hit because we cant all play nicely!

Thanks for the maths lesson Peter but i'm sure Mondello own a calculater and have some other way of separating us from our hard earned cash

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by libre racer

Thanks for the maths lesson Peter but i'm sure Mondello own a calculater and have some other way of separating us from our hard earned cash

You are most welcome. I also give spelling lessons: calculatOr......

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by libre racer

i'm sure Mondello own a calculater and have some other way of separating us from our hard earned cash

Have you seen the prices in the canteen?

[Graz]

Originally Posted by libre racer

No need to worry Graz.It is obvious that it is not "the common view down the grid".One accident involving a lapped car last season proves to me that only a minorty of drivers are prepared to take the risk. We wont be looking for directions to Santry just yet!

[Evil Starkey]

Whats with the smilie Graz? Cat got your tongue?.....

[Evil Starkey]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Have you seen the prices in the canteen?

Tis the reason why I never go to Mondello without a packed lunch

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by Peter Dunne

You are most welcome. I also give spelling lessons: calculatOr......

Maths, spelling lessons , Wow. All you need now are some driving lessons to get you from the back of the grid !

[Peter Dunne]

I'm not at the back of the grid smart boy

[EvilPumpkin]

Play nice boys! Plenty of time to start slagging each other off after you've actually done the first race of the season!

[MagnetON]

hmmm, I should put up a Ten-Tenths trophy for "Most Blue Flagged Libre 2008".

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

hmmm, I should put up a Ten-Tenths trophy for "Most Blue Flagged Libre 2008".

Maybe that should be black/whiteand I don't mean chequered!!

[Panther]

Its been a few days since I last logged on. What a difference a few days makes! Has this thread changed to "Slagging Formula Libre 2008"? Lets remember why we're here people, to discuss the in's and out's of our class, not slag eachother off.