Race truck or trailer?

[Walshy]

No doubt Diz and Redracer will wind me up about this one as I am a bit of a bird when it comes to decision making of this proportion and I've been bending their ears for a while over this.........

I currently tow a trailer with a 4x4 and a Formula Ford on the back. We camp at any "away" rounds and everything is hunky dory. Except for the fact that we sat down the other night and worked out the cost per month of my 4x4 and it was scandalous. It sups juice for fun and, well lets say, you could pay a pretty tidy mortgage with what it's costing to run......

So, options.

We fancy the race truck thing. Put some living space in it instead of camping and get something with an awning to keep you dry if it's raining. We have seen a couple of good examples for around the £3k to 4k mark. However, there are issues of storage, more tax and insurance and long periods of inactivity with it.

Then the other option is the race box. A covered trailer, you can sleep in as a couple of the lads do (and they say it's much warmer than a tent), no overheads and keeps the car dry on the motorway. Only downside, is most of these are more expensive than a truck!!!!!! Plus, a good tow car is still needed.....

Anyone out there got any good or bad experiences of running each alternative..........

[ActiveMS]

Ive been running a 7.5t truck for the last 2 years having previously used a race box.
I camp in the back of the 20ft box which is of course large enough to work on the car during bad weather (even changed engines regularly in the truck).

Much better than towing and I use the truck to store car in.
Did this as it was cheaper than running tow car and secure storage of trailer (blinkin things get nicked all the time).

Here are the costs if you are interested:

7.5t truck = £8k (mine was a very nice std example, but as you say there are cheaper ones around)

Insurance = £350 pa (fully comp)
Tax = £160odd pa (same as car)
Roadside Assistance £214 pa (includes unlimted tows in uk and all labour)

As long as you run "Not for Hire or Reward" stickers on side, its not a commercial vehicle and not subject to an operators plate.

If anyone wants contacts for above insurance and roadside assistance costs, let me know.

Actually, if anyone is interested due to single seater retirement this year, my truck is up for sale.

1998 'S' Iveco Cargo (7E15) 5.9ltr DTurbo
Excellent Condition and good paintwork.
20ft Box (all white, no stickers, including full aero kit on cab).
1 Tonne lift (not extended)
155,000 miles (engines are good for 400,000)
4 Brand new rear tyres. Fronts still good for a couple of years.
Leaf Spring bushes replaced in 05 and MOT until November 2006.
Tie down point for single seater
5 Shoring Poles used as tyre racks.
£5k
Call Jonathan (send PM for phone number)

[Walshy]

I'm interested mate.

I'll PM you for a nosey if you can send me some pics........

Cheers

[MGDavid]

I've just been through the same decision - been using car and trailer for a couple of years, and using B&Bs or hotels which gets expensive and misses the 'craic' in the paddock. Also I was probably illegal on towing weights etc. Just bought an ex-motocross van, Iveco 3510, huge storage in the back and a very civilised camper for 2 or 3 in the front. Tows a dream. Will save even more money if we use it for weekends away, and Le Mans 24 of course.

[StephenRae]

One drawback of a truck is you are marooned at the circuit if you have no other transport...and the ones I've had go wrong all the time.

[HiRich]

Sorry to mess with your head, but there are a couple of other options that are probably worth at least a cursory examination.

Estate Car Or MPV
It sounds like the 4x4 is your concren, not the trailer. A decent estate (M-reg Audi 80?) or a small MPV (Zafira?) might be the solution:
- Bit more economical
- More use through the rest of the week
- Likely to be able to make better progress when towing
- You're not 'losing' more money by selling the trailer as well
You might be losing some towing capacity, but is that really an issue - are you using all of it at the moment?
An MPV with a couple of seats out might give you more stowage space. Even if you have less (say with the estate), a bit of planning and bolting things to the trailer might solve that.
So I'd say it's worth at least asking the right questions and checking prices.

A Van (with the car stowed inside)
You have three options:- .5t (Transit, LDV, Mercedes, etc.), van body or perhaps Luton body, or >3.5t (Mercedes, Iveco Daily). Choose a high roof model, so you can use the space as an office, kitchen, workshop and bedroom. The two key questions are:
- How many seats do you need?
- Will your car fit easily through the rear doors?
If the answers are good, then I think this is well worth considering. You are likely to be able to travel faster than with a truck, and might find more other uses for a van. With a bit of planning, and a couple of hundred quid's worth of 3/4" ply, you could create a very interesting multi-purpose conversion. Considering a van body, I would suggest:
- Install 'running boards' full-length, over the wheelarches, on which the car will sit.
- Install a solid floor
- Under the running boards, you have stowage space. Use some for custom-built cabinets (which also provide the vertical support), others are 'holes' to place your toolkit, gas stove, etc.
- You now have a large space under the car. Plan how all your other kit will fit in there.
- Your ramps can sit on the top of this gap when in transit. Design in a drip tray (or locations for one) so the items beneath are protected.
- Make the section of the running board by the side loading door removable.
- You could buy a permanent side awning unit. Or, with some tarpaulin, a sewing machine, and some custom-made poles make one that is water and wind proof, and perfectly suited to your needs.
- Plan everything to be dual use. It should serve one purpose in transit, and another when you are in the Paddock. When you arrive in the Paddock, it should take 15 minutes to unload and set it up as your Paddock Unit.
- A roll of carpet along the running boards, and you have a bench seat. Another along the floor, and you have a decent base for your bed. For transit, you roll them up and stow them away. Alternatively, flip the running boards so you have seat on one side, friction surface on the other?
- Two stowage boxes come out and stack to create the stand for your stove?
- Then remember to make everything bolted down for security in transit, and removable (so you can use it as an ordinary van)

[Walshy]

Thanks for that.

I might be in luck though.

We both sat down the other night and decided that the truck thing is an unneccessary cost. And just another worry of things breaking or having to pay tax and insurance.

I have been back onto my car dealer who look like they are going to let me trade up to the diesel equivalent of my current car. At a very good cost I might add as well. On top of that, I have seen a very very good box trailer for a good price, so I think we might follow this route.

But then, anyone that knows me will tell you this could all change tomorrow...................

Keep the advise coming though. It's good to hear differing opinions on this subject.

[SPBRacing]

Hi

I use a box van for the car and bits then tow a caravan for the wife & kid. The love it so leave me in piece for racing. I also put an awning on the side for the bad weather. Also if you need to you can use it for a trip out why at the circuit or for home DIY etc. It also keeps the racing and living area seperate so no smells and cross mess.

Stephen

[Ali Rushforth]

We bought an LDV Convoy High Top Minibus. Had it converted to a "day van" with living area, extra seats, cooker etc etc. At the very rear of the van we've built a workshop type area with tool boxes, storage racking, fuel storage etc which is all removable. We have an awning on the side of the van and also sometimes carry very large ez-up. Tows mini c/w 12 spare wheels on trailer.

Reason for doing Day van conversion opposed to full camper is I have 3 young children and my Dad has also young twins!!(never learnt his lesson first time!!) It can be used for trips to coast etc and as workshop area is totally seperate, it makes for a good day tripping vehicle.

[RAY DACKOMBE]

WHY NOT CONVERT THE 4X4 TO LPG, IF YOU DO A BIT OF MILAGE A YEAR IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG TO GET THE CONVERSION COST BACK, IT WOULD ALSO SAVE THE EXTRA COST OF ANOTHER VEHICLE, I RUN AN 850 VOLVO A TRIP TO MANCHESTER FROM HANTS COST £16-14p.

[thatorangething]

Hi, had an intersesting chat with a technical guy at the DVLA last week re motorsport "campers", thought it would make interesting threadage!!.

It would appear that those individuals who are building or running trucks that have the capacity to carry a car, or even a couple of motocross bikes,and that are also a camper, are doing so illegally if they are building or running them as class four MoT vehicles i.e. not a goods vehicle,private or otherwise.

Also, if the vehicle has had it's goods vehicle plate removed as part of the camper & class four conversion, the vehicle then reverts to it's design axle weights as per the manufacturers chassis plate. This is often higher than the plated weight, and if this design weight exceeds 7.5 tons, then you can't drive it on a car license at all,even empty-even if you could when it was goods plated, incidentally, even if it used to be a coach!

And it doesn't stop there, as the new computer system in the MoT stations is allowing the tester to compare the vehicle he has before him with whats on the V5, so if one of these rather heavy looking '7.5 ton' motorsport campers turns up at a plating station for a class four MoT, it runs the risk of being reclassified because of the discovery of goods carrying capacity, so then it gets plated at 7.5 tons...

Only it doesn't, because our DVLA man tells me that they will normally allow a minimum of 1000 kilos of goods carrying capacity to the truck's arrival weight. So if your "camper" turns out to actually be a 7.5 ton lorry, that weighs much more than 6.5 tons with no car on board, which many do,just like horseboxes with living areas, you get put off the road because the conversion is deemed inappropriate, as insufficient goods carrying weight capacity has been allowed for.

So, you then have to get the heavy goods license that you should have had in the first place when you were driving it as a camper with axle weights exceeding 7.5 tons, then you have to get your lorry plated up to the nine or so tons that it actually weighs when ready to head for a race weekend!!! Are you keeping up?!

People have been telling me-especially owners and manufacturers, that this is a 'grey area'?! Doesn't sound very grey to me! Would be interested to hear of your experiences.

Regards
Peter

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by thatorangething

Are you keeping up?!


Regards
Peter

Got lost about here

Originally Posted by thatorangething

Hi, had an intersesting chat with a technical guy at the DVLA last week re motorsport "campers", thought it would make interesting threadage!!.

It would appear that those individuals who are building or running trucks that have the capacity to carry a car, or even a couple of motocross bikes,and that are also a camper, are doing so illegally if they are building or running them as class four MoT vehicles i.e. not a goods vehicle,private or otherwise.

[thatorangething]

How it was explained to me - A goods vehicle over 3.5 tonnes is either in private ownership, like a family car, as a private goods vehicle, or private heavy goods if plated over 7.5 tonnes.

Or, it works for profit, and it is subject to whatever operating rules apply to it for what it does for a living i.e. hgv tax/insurance/operators license/tacho/driver's hours/speed limiter/working time directive etc. as appropriate.

Either way it is subject to plating and testing to a plated maximum weight often lower than the design weight.

A camper however, or at least a real one, can operate on a class four Mot, as it operates without goods carrying capacity, it uses the vehicle's design weight as its upper limit, like a big car if you like. Only this big car needs an HGV license if its design weight is over 7.5 tonnes, which could be pretty likely if you have reclassified an old 7,5 tonne lorry that was originally plated to 7.5 tonnes so a cheap driver could operate it.

I made the DVLA chap explain that very clearly, along with this detail too - Bus and coach based camper conversions that have never been goods vehicles still need an HGV licensed driver if they weigh over 7.5 tonnes.

One used to be able to drive an active operating bus or coach of any weight on a car license if no farepaying passengers on board (I drove an old '50s Leyland PD double decker from Shepherds Bush to my PSV driving test in Caterham on my own, very bizarre!) Didn't ask whether you still can when registered as a bus or coach, but it was made clear to me that one definitely can not drive on a car license when registered as a camper over 7.5 tonnes!

Also if your bus or coach based camper is found to have goods carrying capacity, then it has to be plated and tested, as its not a camper anyway, its a truck.

Complex? Yes, but still very clear, the way it was explained to me. The significant point is that one can very easily find oneself in a position where they believe the vehicle they are driving is legal, when it is in fact not classified properly and as a result is overweight, uninsured, and is being driven without a driving license.

[Al Weyman]

Makes sense to me, I have often wondered at the law which appeared to allow a maybe, novice car driver to jump in and drive a converted coach with one or two cars in the back, always seemed crazy to me. Mind you that other silly law from way back is no better which allows a 3 wheeler car driver on the road with L plates and no accompaning full licence driver or the same law that allows motorcyle trike drives or sidecar outfit drivers not to wear a crash helmet and drive a 1000cc + motorcyle on L plates and take passengers.

On this subject, well similiar anyhow, i.e getting your car to and from the track. I understand novice drivers or drivers who passed their tests after a certain date (1999?) can no longer tow a trailer either, what is your DVLA man's clarification on that? Are they required to sit another driving test with a trailer in tow or is it a time limit thing i.e. they must hold a licence for a certain period as I am sure a lot of people will be unaware of this new ruling as well.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

On this subject, well similiar anyhow, i.e getting your car to and from the track. I understand novice drivers or drivers who passed their tests after a certain date (1999?) can no longer tow a trailer either, what is your DVLA man's clarification on that? Are they required to sit another driving test with a trailer in tow or is it a time limit thing i.e. they must hold a licence for a certain period as I am sure a lot of people will be unaware of this new ruling as well.

It's from 1997, I believe, Al. It's a little more complicated than simply "can't tow" (tho not anywhere near as complicated as the above!). It's all based on MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) of car and trailer....(MAM of car is assumed to be Gross vehicle Weight)

On a "normal" car license obtained during or after 1997 the following must be observed with regard to towing -

A car up to 3500kg can pull a trailer of up to 750ks. (this isn't hugely relevant for the purposes of towing a race car)

If the trailer is over 750kgs -

The MAM of the trailer and the MAM of the car must NOT exceed 3500kgs.
also
The MAM of the trailer must NOT exceed the unladen weight of the towing car.

So while it's possible to tow, it's virtually impossible to find a trailer / car combo that will meet these requirements for anything above Caterfield size. I suppose it makes sense but it's going to be bloody annoying trying to get my car to circuits without taking the towing test!

[MGDavid]

It's a grey area 'cos the MOT man does not know what 'goods' it's been designed for. Put a couple of long clothes rails in and tell him you move shmutter for the fashion industry, or inflated balloons for parties, or.. see what I mean?

[MGDavid]

MOD - could this thread be merged with 'truck or trailer' please? as it was kicked off with a duplicate posting...

[jminsh]

Walshy I've e mailed you .

Jase

[Chris Y]

Merged the two threads.

[thatorangething]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

It's a grey area 'cos the MOT man does not know what 'goods' it's been designed for. Put a couple of long clothes rails in and tell him you move shmutter for the fashion industry, or inflated balloons for parties, or.. see what I mean?

Ah, but if you tell him that, you might well find yourself needing an O licence and planning permission to park the truck!

If you fancy getting into REAL grey area stuff, then try using a Range Rover for professional towing - you need a tacho, and operate to drivers hours (and the working time directive) but only when the trailer's hanging on the back

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by jminsh

Walshy I've e mailed you .

Jase

And I mailed you back.



Defo going to be the Box Trailer option. Now we've done a deal with the dealers to put us in a newer car for less money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Al Weyman]

I was going to suggest converting your 4 x 4 to LPG Walshy but looks like you are sorted. I was using a gassed up old Rangie but the rust bug hit it hard so I have recently bought a 4.3 Vortex (190bhp & 225 ft lbs torque at low rpm)engined 99 Chevy Blazer and stuck a tow bar on it. That had a gas conversion and I bought it off ebay for a good price. I just did Pembrey and back from Watford (about 450 miles I guess) towing a heavy Camaro car and did the whole journey in absolute comfort for £45 which I thought was very reasonable. Also as it is an SUV if you fold the rear seats down you have a 6ft plus bed in the back which if I had not found accomadation down there could have comfortably slept in it if I had to. The Blazer is also rated at 3500kgs braked towing capacity so well within the law. I have ordered some AirLift assisters for the back though as I felt the rear end sagged a bit when towing.

[Bob Pearson]

Further to what you said Al, I understand that passing a test after sometime in the 90's no longer entitles the driver to drive a 7.5 ton truck unlike the people who passed tests in the distant past.
I seriously wonder how many of us actually are legal when we turn up at a meeting.
Does anyone have any idea what most 7.5 ton trucks weigh when empty as we have a plan for carrying two single seaters around in one. That plan was confused when some people we know oly just survived a roadside check with one single seater and the usual equipment in theirs.

[jimbomit]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Further to what you said Al, I understand that passing a test after sometime in the 90's no longer entitles the driver to drive a 7.5 ton truck unlike the people who passed tests in the distant past.
I seriously wonder how many of us actually are legal when we turn up at a meeting.
Does anyone have any idea what most 7.5 ton trucks weigh when empty as we have a plan for carrying two single seaters around in one. That plan was confused when some people we know oly just survived a roadside check with one single seater and the usual equipment in theirs.

Depends on lots of factors.

If it's been downplated from a more 'substantial' wagon iy will weigh more. I have a 1984 Ford Cargo and the beast is 5.5 tonnes empty! More modern ones are much lighter though!!

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by jimbomit

Depends on lots of factors.

If it's been downplated from a more 'substantial' wagon iy will weigh more. I have a 1984 Ford Cargo and the beast is 5.5 tonnes empty! More modern ones are much lighter though!!

Jim that is the weight of your wallet not your truck!!!