Club F3 2007

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I'm sure there will be quick drivers out this year in 97/98s, 99/00/01, and 02/03/04s and I'm sure there will nothing between them.If that was the case why did u buy 02 car- No smoke without fire

I guess if you are a team wanting to attract the best drivers you need to have the latest kit. Gavin proved a 98 can win against the newer cars. But if I joined Club F3 then I would still want the latest car

[JohnMiller]

And the champion won 6 races out of 9 in his 97/98. Mind you, only the champion and two guest drivers won any races all year.

[driftwood]

But if I joined Club F3 then I would still want the latest car This statement proves my point- its NOT pro racing its CLUB racing where costs are to be kept down and with plenty of affordable race cars out there we do not need a series letting in newer models every 18 months or so
IF you want to drive the latest model Class B f3 is there for you- many years ago there where genuine privateers doing Class b f3

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by driftwood

This statement proves my point- its NOT pro racing its CLUB racing

This is a big issue to me. I'm not sure that's true. It needs to decide whether it is club racing or an alternative step on the career driver ladder, like BARC FR which also gives a great home to club racers ensuring good grids.

[driftwood]

Yes John it is an issue and 1 that i feel has been largely ignored by the rule makers
I can easily afford 302 car ( and i have owned 1 ) but its wrong and i stand by my views not to have the car running in CLUBF3 series

I have owned all 3 models 95-01 dallaras and i will race any 1 of those cars if it is the car left in the garage
Each car has its class and merits but the sequential car has no place in CLUB series
The change to a newer car should be every 4 years to allow the model to filter thru class b & plus 1 year so its truly obsolete

The Brazilians raced 394 dallaras from 95 ish to 2001 then they let in 98 car and 1 year later the 01 model which they stil run today
This keeps costs down and they dropped off the expensive Mugen and Opel engines and now run Ford engine thats costs US$12k to buy giving 220 hp and cheaper to maintain

Its not fair to say that ClubF3 should adopt 1 make engine series but it wants to watch the cut off for cars
it does not allow the older cars to be sold to new blood and the statement But if I joined Club F3 then I would still want the latest car clearly proves the point
IF the rules cut off at 301 car this man would still race an F3 car he is not coming to drive a sequential gearbox car -its the same in any series especially Historics people will always go to the latest car they can run

In Euro f2 it will be march 782-GroupC it will be the 1990 Jags spice or Nissan
Grand Prix masters f1 it will be 1978 chassis

CLUBF3 is not a stepping stone on a career ladder its for fat n forties to race a car that is as new as they are likely to afford or be capable of driving/maintaining themselves

Some young gun ex karter comes into Club f3 blows everyone away in club f3 races and by round 4 he wins the championship with 3 rounds remaining
I can see Carlin or Docko rushing to sign him up for the next season f3!!!

Career path racing has to be in a formula with the drivers peers whether that is FFord BMW Frenault he or she has to run in the front of the pack to get some useful racing experience working with Pro teams and get noticed that way -not by running away from the fat n forty brigade

Its about time that CLUB f3 dropped the charade of aiming to be the "stepping " stone and get on with attracting Club racers who work hard to earn the ££ to race on sunday with a mate prepping the car and wife doing the timing/ making the lunch and the kids polishing the car


No disrespect to you John its not really the formula for artics 3 car teams with drivers paying "real" money to have car prepped and delivered to the track but I see why you are there for the time being
good luck to you in your "Bigger " picture quest as you need to start somewhere buI hope it doesnt deter the clubman coming into F3

[JohnMiller]

I can't see why you can't have a proper second-level F3 series that visits the major UK tracks, runs F3 length races and costs quite a bit sub-UKFF money.

I've spoken to lots of foreign drivers about it, not without success - and the majority have never even heard of it.

[ian_w]

Driftwood - I agree with everything you have to say. Remember that its called Club F3 and thats what it should be - club racing.

Its not a stepping stone for young drivers. We all remember what happened when Mr Winslow and Mr Jowsey showed people how to drive the cars - the 'old guard' got most upset and also sorts of ludicrous penaltys were dished out.

[driftwood]

Ian_w your right silly politics/rule bending and absurd penalties where implemented and often in the favour of a certain "pet2 driver
However i will say that was the Old regime not the CLUBF3

John M
If yo say can't see why you can't have a proper second-level F3 series that visits the major UK tracks, runs F3 length races and costs quite a bit sub-UKFF money. will you please surrender your driving licence to DVLA as your eye sight is obviuosly poor!

There is no argument at race tracks/lengths it is the COST- its CLUB racing not semi PRO
Ford Duratec is for young guys to get aleg up the "career 2 ladder budgets are£100k ish next stop FBMW or FR at similarr and rising budgets
None of this is CLUB racers budgets
Club f3 is all about 20 guys ( some with mates some with a part time mechanic prepping car at low rate possible evenings /weekends) who can afford 310-30k on acar and possibly £10-20k per annum to go racing
In this sum is the entry fee tyres some new some used? engine & gearbox maintainence cost fuel and transport costs
Maybe car repaint and some accident damage
I will admit there are guys spedning more as the test every week prior to the event have new tyres more often than not but the bottom line is they are AL CLUB racers
If the sold their f3 car they would go and race another CLUB car whether that be S200 classi/historic Ff-F5000 type car or even an F1 car they would still be doing the racing exactly the same way

Ok they do TGP f1 they may be the poor man in the field compared to the other gentlemen racing but even they are going racing in the same "mental" state only spending more ££ as the DFV cost more to maintain and the cars are higher value
Steve Allen raced ARP/CLUBf3 for 15 years then went to TGP he even used the same prep shop then he came back to F3 and now is doing Historic f1 again
his f3 car approach is the same as most of us

You know my views John im not having a pop at you/your team I am saying its NOT CLUB racing so dont try to make it into something it is not
If you want to "cut your teeth" on running f3 cars with the aim of stepping upt to Pro racing uie Class b or spanish F3 where people will pay the £200k plus budgets please fell free to run 1 car maybe 2 cars in the TRUE spirit of CLUB racing racing
that means YOU and Gavin drive the car not drag in young Fford ex karting type guys or city boys with £80k budgets

If you decide to run some penniless driver at your expense we cant stop you being a "patron" but please dont drag in the ££ paying drivers for 1 year that will screw the series upset the drivers who have for the past 5-10 years ran happily with £10-20k type budgets in F3 cars and would do so for another 5 years

[JohnMiller]

Jesus driftwood, don't blale me for all the ills in the world.

We didn't bring in 2004-spec cars, at least 3 were run last year. I actually bought one for something else but it will now be used in Club F3 anyway.

I was against the introduction of that spec chassis last year and I'm against allowing 05/07 cars in before 2011 as I think the series should always be one step behind British F3! Not that it's up me or you...

[Redracer77]

[QUOTE=driftwood]

You know my views John im not having a pop at you/your team I am saying its NOT CLUB racing so dont try to make it into something it is not
If you want to "cut your teeth" on running f3 cars with the aim of stepping upt to Pro racing uie Class b or spanish F3 where people will pay the £200k plus budgets please fell free to run 1 car maybe 2 cars in the TRUE spirit of CLUB racing racing
that means YOU and Gavin drive the car not drag in young Fford ex karting type guys or city boys with £80k budgets


I agree with most of what you say but Club F3 is in no position to start saying what types of drivers they want in the Championship. Club F3 needs drivers full stop and if West Tec turned up with an artic with 3 drivers all paying £80k a year then brillient for the Championship as it would be 3 more drivers than entered for Castle Combe last year.

Motorsport is about having the best driver with the best kit. If you start saying "he can't race as he has more money than me so lets ban him"

It is club motorsport but what determins the name Club??? Just because someone has more money than you does not mean they need to race in National F3. If the teams and drivers stick to the rules and regulations then anyone with any budget can race in Club F3 until the rules state otherwise.

[JohnMiller]

I fear there won't have any drivers paying £80k, let alone three. Maybe £80k between three...

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I fear there won't have any drivers paying £80k, let alone three. Maybe £80k between three...

I would expect a season in an 01 to cost in the region of £45k with a good team like West Tec which is the same as Class A Formula Renualt BARC but with nicer cars

[JohnMiller]

You're not far out RR. It 'should' cost more but there are supply/demand issues. BARC FR is £60k with a decent team.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You're not far out RR. It 'should' cost more but there are supply/demand issues. BARC FR is £60k with a decent team.

Is the TOCA FR more ££££ because they do more testing and have more tyres?

[JohnMiller]

And more, better personnel which is always the biggest cost.

[FFmygale]

that means YOU and Gavin drive the car not drag in young Fford ex karting type guys or city boys with £80k budgets

I'm not quite sure if the reference to 'Gavin' actually helps you prove your point here!.....he may qualify for half of your 'clubman' definition in terms of age (hes almost 40 but not fat!), but is actually as good a driver (if not better in many circumstances) as most of the young FF drivers out there!

However I do sympathise with your point to a certain degree. Personally, teams with bigger budgets, flash lorries etc. etc. don't worry me (infact the other side of the coin is that they are actually helping raise the profile / level of the series, to something that people become more proud to be a part of?) as there is always going to be someone out there prepared to spend more money on their hobby than the next man.

My biggest issue with a clubman based series is time away from home/family/work etc. If this can be reduced, through things such as; fewer 2 day meetings, racing only on 4 or 5 different tracks (ie. if some tracks are visited twice during the year then this will reduce the need to test the second time you go) etc. then I am sure that more clubman would race.

[driftwood]

points to cover
1 john Im not blaming you for all the "ills" of the world but your a good starting point!!
2 The reference to "fat " John and "skinny" Gavin racing is the point they will spend their own money to run the car from their own pocket and run like the rest of us as Club racers this is not a reflection on whether they can drive a race car like a winnner or a big girls blouse
3 CluvF3 doesnt need 3 guys with deep pockets to come in for 1 year then move on it needs club men who wills tay 2-3 years.If you have the deep pocket brigade you actually alienate the real clubmen who vote with their feet and go off to race else where and you dont get them back
The "Big Team concept is not what ClubF3 needs Mark Bailet ran 2-4 cars foprm atruck but all the drivers owned their cars that is Club racing and as far as it needs to go not some team owning 2-4 cars and selling the drives

I accept EVERY series has the "haves & the have nots" but that can be redressed by implementing some leveling factors
A minimum weight limits including drivers
B Capping of the age of car and engine spec
C Tyres controlling the number used in a season or 1 set for 2 meetings

Regarding 2 day meetings yes that is often a tedious waste of time and money.Two day meetings are of benefit only if u get practise and race each day but so many are Scrutineering and quailifying 1 day then 2 races the next
and ye syour right it takes away the "family" time or half a day of work on the Friday getting to the circuit and setting up for the weekend & some people have to work saturdays

The extra cost with 2 day meetings are the overnight stay in a hotel and feeding of the crew

Having 2 meetings at the same circuit in theory cuts testing cost but rest assured people will go back and test the week of the meeting

[Bob Pearson]

I read all your posts with interest. I notice some of you have an in built fear of the well heeled teams joining in. I shared that fear regarding BARC Renault for many years before losing the battle. I have to admit now that I was wrong and they do bring many positives to the formula and largely speaking few negatives.
Alternatively it could perhaps be argued that the draconian rules governing the running of the twin cam cars wouldn't be there wiithout big budget runners to support them. It doesn't apply to you guys, you seem to have your rule making reasonably under control.
Here's a question for you guys:
The car is sold now so we have nothing to loose by bringing it out in the open.
What is known about 96 Tom's? They look to have been passably competitive at the time and so would perhaps have made a reasonble car in your B class. We were chasing the owner of one in France who was advertising it at what seemed a decent price, but his English was barely better than our French and so progress on the details was slow.
You realise we are a bit out of our depth here but one has to start somewhere Are they a reasonable buy?

[driftwood]

Go find some TOMSspares!!!!
Why do u think people run Dallara & reynard F3 cars

[Bob Pearson]

Lack of spares don't worry us !!

[driftwood]

easy to say until u bend it!!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

What is known about 96 Tom's? They look to have been passably competitive at the time and so would perhaps have made a reasonble car in your B class. We were chasing the owner of one in France who was advertising it at what seemed a decent price, but his English was barely better than our French and so progress on the details was slow.
You realise we are a bit out of our depth here but one has to start somewhere Are they a reasonable buy?

It was in Monoposto spec, I think. But I'm not sure that he realised that when he bought it!!

[ianpearson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

easy to say until u bend it!!

We make all our own spares for our formula renaults, do all our own carbon repairs so parts are never an issue, except for cast items like uprights.

I did think that toms was in mono spec, as you could see air filters down the side, but they did look too low to be webbers on a vauxhall engine

[andy97]

Originally Posted by ianpearson

We make all our own spares for our formula renaults, do all our own carbon repairs so parts are never an issue, except for cast items like uprights.

I did think that toms was in mono spec, as you could see air filters down the side, but they did look too low to be webbers on a vauxhall engine

It was a Toyota engine - I know the last 4 owners very well.

[Arty B]

Originally Posted by andy97

It was a Toyota engine - I know the last 4 owners very well.

Andy is correct. Stay away the car has been nothing but a nightmare for it's last few owners. Driftwood will advise exaclty when (2002?)but it has competed in ARP F3 and had a very large accident at Snetterton I think when it was being run by Jeremy at Nemesis Racing.

AB.